Year of the Bible

Remember back in __ when Georgia Rep. Paul Broun introduced a resolution to have Obama say nice things about the Bible & the Christian religion, and pretend these were responsible for America's democracy and prosperity. Broun wanted 2010 to be declared "The Year of the Bible." To that I say....

Bring. It. ON.

You wanna talk about Adam & Eve? I'm ready.

How about Noah or Moses or King David? You got it.

Methusala and Enoch and Job, too.

We can talk about she-bears and blood sacrifice and whether or not rabbits chew the cud.

We can talk about the immorality of substitionary atonement and original sin.

You want every American to *really* read their Bibles this year? I will do my part to help. The year I was 21 I asked my mom for a Bible in One-Year. We went to the Christian bookstore and I picked it out and, what do you know? I still have it.

So I'll be picking a verse from my daily reading & sharing it here with you, Anteaters, by text post or by video. Remember, every time you subscribe to an atheist, an angel loses its wings!

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Glitter Girl

Great-aunt Katherine was small-boned and petite. She radiated sweetness, and when she had something to add to a conversation, she'd get so excited about it she would bounce on the balls of her feet till it was her turn to speak. She was Giggy's older sister, and to this day I think Gig is still jealous of her for receiving so much of their mother's affection.

Our church, New Creation, was participating in an inter-church festival, and Katherine was in charge of preperations. My aunt Brenda and family-friend Christy Hall were both in the women's dance troupe that would be performing. They wore white dresses with big, inch-high colored jewels on the fronts, representing the twelve tribes of Israel and the priestly robes of Levi. My brother and sister and all their Sunday School classmates were in the flag twirlers troupe that Katherine led and choreographed, and their big red flags furled in the air as they practiced. In a big, busy, and poor family, it was easy for a youngest child to get left out. But Katherine thought of me, and she gave me the most important role in the entire New Creation procession: I was to be the Glitter Girl.

Like the flower girl at a wedding, as glitter girl I would lead the column of flag twirlers and dancers. Instead of scattering petals before me, I would shower the aisle with flecks of gold. Two weeks before the big day Katherine came to the house with a basket full of silver glitter. She told me that we would practice with silver, and work our way up to gold for the night of the performance. I put on my lavender bathing suit with silver flecks sewn in, so that any glitter that stuck to me during practice would be camoflouged by my outfit (until the next time I went swimming when, I'm sure, the glitter got sucked into the pool filter). We stood in the backyard and she taught me how to sprinkle the glitter in wide and sparkling arcs.

"You want the glitter to reach all the way to the first person sitting on either side of the aisle," she told me, and I stretched my arm as wide and high as I could as I carefully slipped the glitter pieces between my forefinger and thumb. The week of the festival, Gig took me to K-Mart for my first-ever brand new dress. I remember that she was feeling harried that day; Gig was always running late or running behind, so most days she was short-tempered and quick-tongued. But this day I didn't care if I was taking too long; I wanted to look at every dress they had and choose the one that was just right. I settled on a navy blue dress with white polka dots and a white lace collar with a single rose sewn in the center.

The big night came and I put on my brand new dress, stockings, and black Mary Janes. We loaded up into the station wagon and headed for the festival. I remember the practie and anticipation better than I remember the actual event. My memory of going their or coming home is fuzzy, but the memories of walking down the aisle, of stretching my limbs to get glitter to the farthest edges of my path, and of my pride in wearing that brand new dress - those memories are crystal clear.

Image credit goes to =Fallen-Stock of Deviant Art. That's not me, but it's pretty close to what I looked like at the time.

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Stealth Atheism

I play a few games on Facebook, like Farmville and Cafe World, where you get more points or advance faster in the game by having more friends who also play. Rather than harass my blog readers or the few family members who haven't un-Friended me yet with invitations to play, I added a whole bunch of other gamers to my Friends list.

And then I post things about atheism, and the First Amendment, and faith healing. Most of my game friends appear to be Christian. I can't tell you how many times someone has sent me an angel or a "God loves you" app invitation, or how many times I've seen "god's message to you" posted on someone's Facebook wall. (That one's actually hilarious, because it's always "In God we Trust" for everyone, and it's a picture of a freaking dime. So I get to comment and tell them how that's only been on the money since the 50s.)

The majority of these people might never knowingly befriend an atheist. I may be the first open atheist they've ever even slightly known. So, I try to use these annoying pro-Christian messages as an opportunity to let people know atheists are out there. I got an invitation today to join the group "Let God in Schools" *shudder*. Rather than just ignoring it, I sent this private message back to the woman.

Hi M,

I wanted to thank you for asking me to be involved. I'm actually a fierce defender of the 1st Amendment, which calls for separation of church and state. The government stays out of churches, and churches stay out of the government, including public schools (which includes children of all faiths and no faith at all).

I am an atheist myself, but I completely respect and will fight for your right to practice your religion respectfully. I would ask that you consider the imposition of god into school, if it was from some other religion. If Muslims were the dominant population in America, would you want the Koran taught in public schools, or would you want your children to be free to worship Jesus and read the Bible, and not be required to pay homage to Allah during school?

Again, thanks for the invitation. I enjoy being Facebook game buddies with you :)

Take care,
Angie

I spectifically used the Muslim argument, not to pit Christians against Muslims, but to put them in the atheist's shoes for a second, as the "other" from the group in power. And because it worked on my mom, who didn't see why I was complaining about my son being asked to sell "Bible Verses for Kids" as a school fundraiser, until I asked her how she'd feel about him selling "Koran Verses for Kids".

Now M. here might unfriend me. My family has shown me that's an option. She might ignore my note entirely. She might think about these things, and be a little less pushy about getting her faith in school - maybe she never considered it from another perspective before. And she may email me back with questions like, "What's an atheist?" or "But why can't we have god in school?"

I encourage you to engage in "stealth atheism" as well. Make friends or acquaintances with believers. Let them know you on some minimal level, and form an opinion of you based on your character, and then let them know "Oh yeah, I'm an atheist." It's not a dirty word; it's not inherently offensives; it's not even necessarily anti-religion (that's anti-theism folks, not atheism). And the more we just own up and claim the word and say, "Yup, we exist" the less marginalized we'll feel, AND the more some Christians will consider atheists and non-Christian theists in public policy. Not every Christian is a theocrat, so the better we can educate them on atheism, secular humanism, and non-religious ethics and morality, the less distrusted atheists will become.

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OYG! It's natural selection

This news made me smile. I read the whole article (and I am a skimmer by nature - it's how I go through so many blog posts and articles per day.) Basically, it's a look at how the recession has affected different denominations (and non-denominations) of Christianity, and Jewish synagogues and schools.

They're numbers are going down the toilet, and I for one am *thrilled*. These numbers might not indicate a damn thing about rising secularism, or decreased belief in some kind of creator god or even a personal "relationship" type god. It does mean the churches will have less people-crushing money. You can't spend quite as much time and money telling Africans why they should get AIDS instead of wearing condoms while you're busy paying out sex scandals. (Notice, almost every single mention of the Catholic Church in the last few years has been about the sex scandal. I don't think their reputation is going to recover for another twenty years or more.)

And while Ted Haggard is completely heterosexual, the evangelical churches he used to head as President of the National Association of Evangelicals are looking to have a little less gay-bashing cash sitting around, as they fire clergy and close buildings and schools.



Kind of brings a tear to your eye, don't it just? Also, Roy Zimmerman is a demi-god. (Joss Whedon is a god. Oh yeah, I decided to make up my own pantheon. Feel free to make suggestions for other deity!)

Anyway, here's the final piece of happy I wanted to share with you, and the reason for this post's title

Religious leaders say the next year or so will be key in determining which organizations survive the downturn intact. Even if the recession ends soon, religious fundraisers say the angst donors feel will not lift immediately, prolonging the difficulties for congregations, schools and ministries.

*Contented sigh* I just get happy thinking about them vying for primacy amongst the new environmental pressures, and the ones found fittest being those that survive. It's such a beautiful analogy, I think I'll use it on the next creationist.

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The Story is a Lie

I love when funny religious opportunities fall into my lap. I've been wasting far too much time on Facebook games (uh-huh, I know I'm lame, and that no one but me uses the word "lame" anymore.) Over in the side banner ads, I found this: You can add "The Story" to your personal blog or your church's website for FREE! Share the Good News with your friends and your community.

Thanks, I think I will. :)

Sadly, they don't really mean it about embedding it on your personal blog, at least not if your blog "is obscene, indecent, harassing or otherwise objectionable in the sole discretion of SpreadTruth; or... disparages, or reflects negatively upon, 'SpreadTruth.com/ ViewTheStory.com'" Ah, terms and conditions, how I loathe thee.

Doesn't it say something in that they're afraid to have people who don't already agree with them look at their story? They really only want you to spread the gospel among good Christian folks and church websites. Yeah, I'm sure that'll be real effective at recruiting new converts. (Cowards and morons, all.)

So, sadly, you'll have to settle for following this link. (As much fun as it would be to start a war with fundies, I'd rather it didn't begin by me violating a rule. I'll let them do that, as they are so pernicious at it.) Go look at it and I'll do a jigsaw puzzle while I wait for you.


*whistles*



You done? It's very slick looking, I must admit. They've definitely converted some good designers over the years. And it's a little friendlier than a Jack Chick comic, but not by much. Look closely at the page on "the Fall". I guess God's off the hook for amputees, since apparently everything bad in this world (including biologically evolved viruses - stick it creationists!) is the fault of one man and one woman. But I need to point this out, because I think it's important. This is their interpretation of the serpent tempting Eve (and by extension, Adam).

"Adam and Eve, the first humans... Because God is love and love cannot fully exist without the freedom to make choices (but it can partially exist?) God gave them the freedom to make choices - but with consequences."

Okay, parent lecture time: In order for kids to get good at making decisions, they have to have a lot of opportunities to practice that skill set. But you don't actually set your kid up for punishment - you offer two acceptable options and let the child choose between them. I let my son pick which out five t-shirts he wants to wear to school that day, and which pair of shoes. When he starts acting up at the pool, I ask him "Do you want to play nicely in the pool by the rules, or do you want to go home and play with your toys there?" Neither choice leads to negative consequences or punishment; I give him two "good" choices to pick from.

As he gets older, he'll be faced with much more complex decisions, with more serious consequences than wearing a clashing outfit in his class photo. Because he's getting so much early practice now, and building confidence in his ability to choose for himself, I expect he'll be pretty good at it. But I wouldn't offer him a "choice" with dire consequences, like those that are supposedly due to the Fall. I wouldn't place a loaded gun on my coffee table and say, "You can play with any toy in the room, but not that one." The chance that he might pick it up out of curiosity (not a desire to usurp me or rebel) and seriously injure himself is far too great for him to engage in such risky behavior - because I love him. God cannot both have placed the Tree in the Garden and be "Love". What He supposedly offered wasn't a choice; it was a trap.

Let's go further into what The Story has to say about Adam and Eve and the Snake.

One day Satan... told Adam and Eve a lie. He deceived them into thinking God was not good and did not have their best interest in mind. As a result, they willfully disobeyed God and broke the only rule He had given: not to eat the fruit of a specific tree. In rebellion Adam and Eve decided that they, not God, would determine what is right and what is wrong.

Well, see, that's just not true. I know this story very, very well. (I believed it was literal truth until a year and a half ago. Shut up, I know.) What the Bible actually says is that Satan told Adam and Eve that they would not die if they ate the fruit (which God had said) and that they would gain the knowledge of good and evil. Prior to this point, Adam and Even didn't have that knowledge - they had no sense of morality, or of right and wrong. That's the whole point of the story, so it bugs the hell outta me when Christians try to paint A&Es actions as intentional "willful" sin. They did not know good and evil. God punishes them for picking up the gun off the coffee table, when they don't even know that they aren't supposed to disobey him. Or if they were supposed to unquestioningly obey him, and the second they didn't they'd suffer all the "consequences" of the Fall, then that's not real love or real choice or real freedom either. It's a set up.

Furthermore, the last sentence irks me. "In rebellion Adam and Eve decided that they, not God, would determine what is right and what is wrong." Bible reading FAIL! It had nothing to do with the decision to take from god the moral judgment of "This is right, this is wrong" (which humans have always had - god(s) are imaginary). The story is about Adam and Eve gaining the pre-existing knowledge of what is good and what is not. This is a weird attempt at painting Adam and Eve as secularists or moral relativists or something. And any good atheist who's read his/her Bible (may I recommend Brick Testament and SAB for those who don't wanna pay a mint for the dead tree version?) knows that the crap in this e-mag is not the same as the crap that's in the "Good News".

Oh well, at least I chose their "Make a decision" button. (Of course, you automatically get checked as choosing "follow Christ" - there ARE NO CHOICES.) But at least I got to tell them I was reading, and hoped to place talk about their project extensively on my blog. Of course, you can't put links in your dialogue, so I just used it as my name instead. Here's the hilarious auto reply I got back:

Thanks angietheantitheist.blogspot.com! Your decision has been sent.
We will repsond to your message as soon as we can. We will respond via e-mail to angieantitheist@ gmail.c om.

Here's a direct reading of the first three books of Genesis, by the astonishingly funny Ricky Gervais.

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Let's Rip on the Catholic Church

Let me start by saying that one of my very favorite people in the world, the woman I named "godmother" even though she technically wasn't one, was a devout Roman Catholic all her life. I try to let you know if I'm objecting to a theist, a group of theists, or a theist institution. Today, I'm gonna hate on the Vatican, and probably Phil Donahue. (That nozzle is asking for it.) Oh, and any Catholic who's still paying tithe. Now that the lame-ass disclaimer is out of the way, let's jump into the fun.

1) PEDOPHILES!!!!


Sure, it's almost old hat to talk about now. (Wow, did I really just use a 1930's expression in my 21st century blog? Why yes, I believe I did.) It's as if we're desensitized to the awfulness because it's so damn prevalent. To me that means we have two problems - the fact that priests molested children, and the fact that the Catholic Church gave them the means and opportunity to do it again. And again. And again.

Any Catholic still giving tithe is paying for the Vatican lawyers who are trying not to pay damages to sexual abuse victims who were anal raped by "men of God". (Likewise, any Jehovah's Witness who pays tithe is paying for lawyers to protect pedophile laymen, not just clergy.) Furthermore, the priests themselves aren't being sentenced to prison for this. Now, I happen to think statutes of limitations on sexual abuse crimes against children are unreasonable as they currently stand. Sometimes it takes years - decades - to come forward. That doesn't mean the abuse was insignificant; it often means that the abuse was particularly damaging to the individual.

Repeat pedophiles of young boys are more likely than pedophiles of young girls to attempt to form a "relationship" with the boy, centered on non-sexual activities, and to then abuse that close bond and (in the case of clergy) position of authority to often manipulate and guilt the child into participating in sexual acts. This extra level of manipulation can prevent someone from coming forward about their abuse for years, and sexual abuse is one of the most under reported crimes. I think we should do everything we can to make it easier for real victims to get real justice, whenever they're ready for it.

And here's the real kicker: The Vatican ain't sorry. "Your kid get ass-raped for years by the man you called "Father" and thought had a batphone to heaven? Meh. Too bad. Here's some cash if you'll shut up about it." There's the constant down-playing of the damage done to victims; the original cover ups and the shuffling of priests from parish to parish, so that they wouldn't get in legal trouble and could continue molesting more kids; the hush money to parents of victims; and every Catholic who's still giving money to the Catholic Church after we've heard these hundreds thousands of cases.

2) Sex, Birth Control, and HIV


I understand that Yahweh is obsessed with how people address their menstruation, ejaculate, and foreskins. But the wholesale slaughter of thousands of Africans - the intentional lies about condoms - is inexcusable. If the Vatican bishops, et al. want to live a life of celibacy, that's their choice. But if they do, then there are three areas of life they have no expertise and should not comment on - sex, marriage, and parenting. If the Catholic Church stayed out of all these areas (and I'm including homosexual marriage, transvestism, single parenting, multiracial couples, anal butt plugs, whatever) I probably wouldn't have (such) a strong desire to kick Pope Nazi in the family jewels.

But noooooooo. The Church has to butt in where it does not know what it is talking about. Or else it intentionally lies and manipulates. We know for a fact that abstinence only education works about as well prayer (or the rhythm method). And yet we've let bullies like the Catholic Church and others decide that the United States shouldn't help out any health clinic, around the world, if they decide to talk about family planning. Note - I'm not even saying abortion. This global gag rule includes clinics that talk about birth control, that give accurate information about STDs and condoms. Why would Catholic priests tell their African congregations that condoms come pre-infected with HIV, or that if they don't stay celibate or fidelous in marriage, that they deserve whatever disease God gives them? It's not like the pedophile priests have to worry about getting infected by the virgins they rape. (Which is really not so different from the African superstition "virgin myth" that if an HIV-infected man rapes a virgin girl, he'll be cured. This has led to the rape of girls as young as one month old - all by men with HIV.)

If you want to believe in the virgin birth and Holy Mother Mary and your pantheon of saints, go for it. But recognize what you're paying for if you tithe to the Catholic Church. You are paying for child rape, lying, manipulation, hush money, lawyers, and the near-genocide of Africans. There are probably some people out there who won't shop at Wal-Mart because they don't like how they use their money, but do give tithe to the Catholic Church. Be aware - this is what the Vatican spends tithe money on:

1) Protecting and enabling pedophiles
2) Lying and leading thousands to their deaths
3) Gold encrusting their palace

If you like the work of St. Vincent de Paul Society, see if you can donate directly to them. Ask if any of the money donated gets sent to the Vatican. Or donate to one of the charities I have in the side links (over there ----->) or to any number of other charitable organizations. I don't know about you, but I don't want any of my donation dollars going to protect the lavish lifestyles of child-rapists and the wholesale deception of an entire continent, currently ravaged by HIV infection.

And if you haven't already done so, please take a couple of minutes to sign the petitions in the upper right corner of this page. Every signature counts, and I greatly appreciate all my readers for taking part in "slactivism" (my favorite new word!)

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Infant Baptism: part 1

I was baptized at six, in the pool of a fellow church member one Sunday afternoon, after repeatedly begging my mother for the honor. The fundamentalist churches of my childhood didn't have infant baptisms ("sprinklings"); we had adult baptisms ("dunkings"). It was a decision to be made by the person being baptized ("dunked"), not their parents. Of course, six was really too young to make that choice either. I hadn't explored any other options and thought of baptism as just one of several life steps I was supposed to take at some point. Why wait till seven?

Then when I went to Vineyard as a teen, I perceived a rise in "baby dedication" ceremonies. Shiny new evangelical families could "dedicate" their baby. I don't know if this was supposed to cover some of the same "what if a kid dies before being saved?" issues infant baptism is supposed to address or not. It made me really uncomfortable. Here we were - a congregation of people who had chosen to follow Christ, who read and knew His words, and did not believe that infant baptisms were religiously correct. But it was clear to me on some level that baby dedications were infant baptisms, minus the water.

The same people who absolutely cannot comprehend arranged marriage, try to arrange their children's religion. Oh sure, pick your own wife - that's love! That's romance! That's part of Western culture! But picking your own god? Nah, your parents don't trust you enough for *that*. Or maybe they don't trust God enough to think he'll care for their baby if there hasn't been some obeisance made to him, publicly and ritually. Still, the Vineyard baby dedications didn't really bug me. They were ultimately sweet - with the parents beeming with pride on their little bundle, and Dave, the pastor I adored, essentially wishing good things for the child.

In my early twenties I went to the dedication of cousin's little girl. Neither he nor his wife had a church they belonged to. They got married while expecting their daughter. Yet when it came time to raise their daughter, they chose the church route that neither one followed and the faith that neither lived by. Tradition! The service was held at my cousin-in-law's aunt's church: a small, acoustic-cieling tiled office space near the air force base. The pastor was frenzied and the message disturbing. The music was some of the worst I'd ever heard, on an old baseball diamond organ. The whole atmosphere was creepy, weird, and musty. Of course the three-minute prayer for my cousin was after the sermon: Why on earth would the pastor waste a captive audience of unwilling far-flung relatives and varied religious persuasions? (Part 2 on baptizing my son tomorrow)

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 8

Today I'll be posing as David, asking questions on the nature of certainty and how anyone can really know anything about "god".

You are speaking live with Katie, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Katie: hello

Me: Hi - I'm David.

Katie: how are you?

Me: I'm good, how are you?

Katie: I'm doing well, thanks
what prompted you to come on mormon.org?

Me: I have some questions about god in general and about lds specifically

Katie: great

Me: Why do you believe that Mormonism is the right religion?

Katie: what has led you to have questions about God and the church?

Me: I don't see how people can be so certain they're right, and I wonder what's different about them. (By calling it "different" instead of deficient, I'm allowing Katie to think she has an opportunity to tell me about the difference the Holy Ghost makes.)

Katie: great question
David, God has given us some incredible tools so that we can know truth
scriptures and prayer

Me: Do you mean like the rules of logic and our critical thinking skills?

Katie: let me share a little bit with you about the church
yes! Those are also important tools that he has given us
He teaches us many wonderful truths about who we are and His plan for us
through prophets
and we are invited to read their words
and to pray and ask Him is it is true

God has give us the Bible and in our day he has brought forth the Book of Mormon ("Our day" is the 1820s?)
another testament of JEsus Christ

Me: How do you know those are the right holy books?

Katie: because
I have read them abd pondered their teachings

Me: Not trying to be offensive, but when there are so many other religions and religious texts, how do you know which is right? (Notice how I continually make small social overtures which do not require me to concede a point, or agree with a factually untrue statement. "Not trying to be offensive" sounds polite without ever saying I respect her beliefs or that she should be offended that her podunk little religion sounds exactly like all the others - except the underwear part. You can build social capital by being overtly polite and pleasant. I'll cash in this political capital later.)

Katie: and most importantly I have asked God if it is true
sorry, I didn't mean to answer with just because :)

Me: or if any of them are right?

Katie: by using what you said earlier - our minds and critical thinking skills (Oh Katie, I love you. This couldn't be going any better if you were following a script!)

Me: That's ok :)

Katie: DAvid, let me share with you a little but about someone who had some simmilar questions

Me: Okay, but I'd like us to get back to this point later - about how we can use critical thinking to discern between religions

Katie: sure
that is actually still what I am getting at
as well
David, do you understand the role of a prophet?


Me: I think it's like the Mormon pope - he's always a man; he intercedes with god on behalf of his people; he gets divine revelation; and at least in the case of Catholics is supposed to be infallible. Am I right? (I don't know if Mormons dislike Catholics as much as fundamentalist/evangelical Christians do, but hell, the Prophet is just a less-rich pope.)

Katie: sort of...
God has called prophets from the begining of the earth- since Adam and Eve (Ouch. I remember thinking those were two real actual first humans, some 6,000 years ago.)
He uses a pattern to teach us
He calls righteous men and speaks to them directly- teaching them all about the gospel and His plan for us
HE commands the prophets to teach us
they teach us directly also record their words in scriptures

Me: What has led you to believe all this - that god exists, is concerned with humans, uses prophets, etc.?

Kaite: many things
one is the other part to this pattern that I am sharing

Me: ok (I find that non-committal agreements like this - as in, okay continue your case - are a good way of staying "nice" and keeping the person you're talking to from raising up defenses to communication - like sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "What I Got" by Sublime. Okay, probably not. But it's what *I* like to hum while ignoring the facts around me. Also, doing something "nice" makes someone feel like the owe you, which is often handy.)

Katie: so after God commands His prophest toteach us- and record scriptures
He commands us to read their words and to pray abotu it.
we read scriptures and are taught by prophets and then ask God if they are true
and God answers our prayers (This is self-indoctrination. The social pressure to "hear from God" in a tight community of true believers is overwhelming. In hereditary religion, you've got no choice but to interpret your own inner voice as God. Since you know you're supposed to reach the conclusion your family's dogma is true, the "voice of God" in your head tells you things in complete compliance with what your family and your religion have told you it would. It can feel very persuasive, if you believe it.)

Katie: however, many people choose not to believe or follow prophets
when people reject prophets it is called apostasy (Note: at least from this chat, apostasy for LDS is rejecting prophets, not god. interesting)

Me: I don't think people really have a choice in what they believe. I mean, either you think something is true or you don't, wouldn't you agree? (Here i try to cash in on social capital built up with earlier pleasantries, smileys, "is that rights" and non-committal agreements, but it fell a little short.)

Katie: no
we learn and study and ponder things DAvid

Me: Do you think for one moment you could choose to believe that the earth is flat?

Katie: we learn new things every day

Me: I agree we learn new things every day

Katie: no because I know it is not...
knowledge affects our beliefs
when we learn the gospel

Me: Absolutely - knowledge DOES affect our beliefs

Katie: and Gods teachings we can choose to find out if it is true or not

Me: so we may have a choice in how much and what kind of knowledge we acquire, but I don't think we "choose" our beliefs. You can't choose to believe the earth is flat, because your knowledge prevents that "choice"
(Is it wildly narcissistic to say "Ta-da!" to my computer screen when I think I've made an excellent point? Yes? Oh well.)

Katie: ok
I agree
when you know something you don't have to believe because you know
(Katie, I could kiss you!)

Me: Okay. I think we both totally agree on that. (This is actually pretty significant. If that germ of a worm of an idea gets into her head - that people don't choose to be apostates, but that knowledge affects beliefs - it will make punishment for apostasy unjust in her eyes and may get her to question her own knowledge. Or it might not, but I choose to remain hopeful.)
You said that one of the ways you know LDS is true is that you have studied and prayed over the Bible and BOM, right?

Katie: yes

Me: What about other holy texts, like the Koran?

Katie: let me share a scripture with you about it (Let me guess, Moroni 10? Nephi 5? In eight conversations I've been consistently given the same two passages.)

Me: Okay.

Katie: check out verse 3-5. This is a promise from the Book of Mormon

Me: The url/verse didn't come through

Katie: look for what God is promising us in these verses
let me try again
(link)

Me: Thanks - it worked that time.

Katie: great

Me: I've heard similar things before, from other religions. Ray Comfort of NZ is always talking about talking to god with sincerity, and my Muslim friends have shown me similar verses in the Koran.
Do you think Ray and Muslims are wrong in their religion?

Katie: I know that they are
DAvid, what did God promise in this scripture?

Me: That by praying you can ask him whether or not something is true and he'll tell you
How do you know they are? That's really the crux of the puzzle in my head. How do you know something you only believe? (Agh! I gotta slow myself down. When I ask too many questions, they don't all get answered as thoroughly as they should)

Katie: not something DAvid
the Book of Mormon
if you and pray and ask God if the Book of Mormon is true He will answer your prayers
and if you know that the Book of Mormon is true, you will know that what it teaches is true (Gee, and tautologies are statements that are tautologies.)

Me: Okay, so it's specifically the veracity of that particular book, not a promise to help you know what's true about other areas, right? (Because those might be testable claims!)
What if I pray and ask if the BOM is true and I feel like he's said "No"?

Katie: actually that knowledge helps you out with incredible ammounts of knowledge
that wont happen, but if it did then you would logically know it wasn't true (Okay, ouch on the logic front, but kudos to her crediting a rational reason for disbelief. This only ten minutes after conceding we don't choose to believe/disbelieve. So - excellent progress from Katie.)

Katie: David, I know that the Book of Mormon is true
I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet (and if I say it enough times, I can make myself believe anything)
will you read the Book of Mormon and ask God if it is true?

Me: Sure. But will you do me a favor in return?

Katie: that's great!
I know DAvid, that God will answer your prayers (with "Yes", "No", or "Wait". Same as a jug of milk.)
and you will know that the Book of Mormon is true
and incredible spiritual truths will be unfloded to you!
sure, what can I do for you?

Me: Will you read the Koran and ask god if it is true? Or the teachings of Buddha? Or the Egyptian Book of the Dead?
Because if one of those is right, I want you to find it. And if they're not right and Joseph Smith is the true prophet, they you'll have even more reason and knowledge to back up and inform your belief, like we talked about before. (Or the third stealth option - all the religions are man made, just like all the gods and prophets.)

Katie: that is true ("Booyah!" yells at the monitor are probably equally self-serving, huh?)
do you have a Book of Mormon?

Me: No, I don't. I'll order on through the site today though :)

Katie: wonderful

Me: This has been a really great conversation. I still have more questions.

Katie: DAvid, we also have wonderful missionaries in your area that can come and bring one to you and teach you more about the SAvior
will you meet with them?

Me: But maybe it would better to talk again in a couple weeks, after I've had a chance to read the Book of Mormon and you've had a chance to read the Koran. Then we can talk again, and compare notes. You can help me see why you know that this one is right

Katie: sure

Me: I have a special needs child in the home, so visitors are problematic for us. (Theme music from "Psycho" is playing in my head at the thought of battling off doorstep missionaries as my marker-weilding pants-less toddler runs about yelling "Booyah!" and hitting himself in the head with a stuffed puppy.) I do most of my socializing online as a result. (True. Sad, but true.)

Katie: would you like to set up a time to talk again?
when would work for you?
I see

Me: I would love that Katie :) Weekdays before 2 EST are generally good for me - what's best for you?

Katie: that's fine
I am online Tuesday and Friday mornings from 7am to 11 am EST
come on any time and ask for me

Me: Okay Katie. Will you get a copy of the Koran from your library? I'll order the BOM now and we can talk again soon.

Katie: it has been
thanks for talking with me

Me: Thank you - have a great day. I'm really looking forward to having another conversation about knowledge, belief, and god :)

Thank you for taking the time to chat with us and for your interest in the Church. Please know that you are welcome to worship with us any time, request a visit from Mormon missionaries, order a Book of Mormon, or continue to browse our Web site to learn more answers to life's greatest questions.


What Have We Learned?
That Katie is the best Mormon outta 8 - and what her schedule is.* She was by far the most engaging to talk to, and I felt myself actually being excited to have the conversation with her. While she made a lot of bald assertions and unsupported claims, and her concept of what "knowing" something means is so inclusive as to be fairly meaningless, she could follow a chain of logic or argument from one point to the next without getting lost. So I really am planning on having a future talk with her. I'll just have to remember that I'm "David" when I do so. (For the gender-switching explanation, check out Mormon Chat #5 below.)

I also learned that I need to stick with this particular line for most of my theist/atheist discussions. How do you "know" that something is true. It's the question that got me out of religion and out of god-belief, and it's also the one I probably have the most to say about and have thought about the most. I should never talk about the historicity of Jesus (and frankly, I don't care if a Jefferson Bible-type rabbi actually was wandering around Jerusalem or if Paul made the whole thing up in a fevered dream). I should NEVER talk about the details of any science. (I *should* link people to credible sources like Scientific American, or get back up from a friend who IS knowledgeable about science.) I CAN talk about the Bible. I can't really back anything up that I half-remember from an ACA lecture about the early church or the cannon of the Bible. Now, if I wanted to learn more about those and use them in debate, I could. But for now, I'm gonna zero in on this one. I didn't know how little evidence there was Christ's life as a Christian, but I don't think it would have made a damn bit of difference if I had. I mean, I was a day-age creationist; I was capable of cramming logical fallacies into tightly compartmentalized spaces in my head.

So, I'm gonna go order the Book of Mormon. I'm going to get way too much crap in the mail as a result, probably, but anything to take money out the Mormon church (or any church)'s pocket sounds good to me. Check out their Free Media Gallery. I urge all my readers to order as many materials as they could possibly desire. I don't like the Mormon church spends their money infringing on the rights of gay and lesbian Americans. Let's let them waste it making free Bibles for every atheist that wants to debate a Christian online. And hey, I'm pretty sure you could decorate a dorm room wall with the shiny side of all those DVDs. Or, you could have your own snark-fest, debunking, debating, mocking and maligning the content of these free materials. So come on, make me happy and accept a little junk mail.

Or just have the stuff shipped to your ex-pastor's house. Whatever works for you.**


To catch up on the whole series, please feel free to browse earlier chats.
Chatting with Mormons 1 - On Mormon history and the similarities between LDS and Islam.
Chatting with Mormons 2 - On belief, first use of Moroni 10.
Chatting with Mormons 3 - On women in the LDS church. I injured myself doing faceplams.
Chatting with Mormons 4 - On Joseph Smith's history - till the missionary ran away
Chatting with Mormons 5 - On original sin, hell, and the devil.
Chatting with Mormons 6 - On death an afterlife.
Chatting with Mormons 7 - On science, feminism, and child free by choice.


Finally, here's the kind of conversation I want to eventually have with Katie and other theists like her. This video has the honor of killing my faith :) It's fun to watch now, but I can't tell you how bad I squirmed, trying to come up with justifications that didn't sound pathetic in my own head. Ex-Christian.net, "God is Not Great", and the Atheist Experience helped me through the next bit, and now I'm as loud and proud as it's possible to be. Critical thinking = good.







* Go find your own Mormon.
** DISCLAIMER: Angie the Anti-Theist is a dumb ass with an odd sense of a humor, not a lawyer or law enforcement officer. If you broke the law, I didn't tell you to.

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Worship High

There are some places where the rules of society don't apply. I'm allowed to curse and yell at the man who cuts off my car on the highway, but not the woman who cuts off my cart at the grocery store. In a mosh pit, I'm allowed to shove and hit people and they're allowed to elbow and kick me. In a charismatic evangelical church, I'm allowed to experience musical euphoria, cry, dance, or collapse onto the floor in an emotional puddle. I'm allowed and even encouraged to raise my arms up, to smile while tears stream down face. So it makes sense that now that I don't go to church, I never experience that anymore.

The Holy Spirit is not any more absent in my life now than he ever was. Concluding, as I have, that God is imaginary, I see that the presence or lack of God in my life is not the determining factor. Rather, I never go anywhere anymore where lame dancing and public displays of internal emotions are so heartily encouraged or even tolerated as they were at church. I'm not going to break down at the pool or the bar or the grocery store. The environment is what elicits the response, not the calling of God on your heart. Or my heart. Sorry, my heart just pumps blood. Really, really fast in a mosh pit.

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Roles: Part One

I was the perfectionist who never tried. My grandmother had almost Calvinistically predestined roles for each family member to fill; my aunt Sally was the "sick one" she could baby; my mom was the "dependable one" she could manipulate and exploit; my brother was the "disobedient one" she could take out her anger on; my sister was the "good one" she could show off as an example of her superior parenting; and I was mini-Gig.

It was fairly easy to see the damage she was doing to my brother David. He acted out in his misery and anger, and go kicked out of multiple schools for bringing weapons and building bombs. He would fight me physically sometimes, and I would lose pathetically. But at other times, he defended me from neighborhood bullies and, in his scapegoat family role, he took a lot of the abuse from Gig away from the rest of us.

Likewise, my sister Esther was clearly affected. She was an obvious people pleaser at a very young age, and I remember her crying and screaming the day she got a "B" on her report card in second grade. She vowed to never get another "B" again. She didn't. But for the matter of an odd weighting system, my sister would have been valedictorian of her high school (instead she was a straight A salutatorian). My mom saw my sister's perfectionist tendencies and recognized them as a burden she dealt with also. I think she was able to directly refute some of the messages Gig was giving my sister, and I think it probably helped.

I was the perfectionist who never tried. I was supposed to be supernaturally good like Esther, supernaturally smart like David (who was already fixing home appliances and electronics in elementary school), and be supernaturally spiritual like Gig. As a child I always felt this tremendous pressure, not to live up to my siblings, but to live up to all the adults in my life. I felt like I had accomplished nothing in my ten years on earth because I couldn't contemplate ever being as successful (or more successful) than them. So I didn't try. I could never be as good as Esther, and frankly, the effort to reward ratio looked pretty crappy. Esther didn't get grounded and spanked as often as I did, but she spent hours doing chores or making other people happy, while I largely watched TV and played in the backyard between punishments.

My Christian teen years, I felt so isolated from the other youth group members. None of them had sex, or at least not as young as I did. None of them did drugs, or at least not as often as I did. At the time they looked like prep school elitists to me - there was no way trailer park Angie would be good enough for them. So I found ways to make people like me without being good enough. I was never the friend with a lot of cash to spend in high school, but I had a car and I had big ideas. I could find something for us to do, even if it was just playing "Soup!" and confusing all the pedestrians. But like with my own family and my sister, I felt I could never impress God with my goodness, because there would always be people who wore holier, sweeter, kinder than I was, or else more maternal or domestic or womanly, or more obedient, devoted, and reverent. I was loud, sometimes extremely socially awkward, with undiagnosed mental problems, and a lot of drug use. There's no way I could get on God's good side based on my behavior compared to the ideal of Christian youth I'd been presented with for years by Focus on the Family Brio! subscriptions (the vapid and vacuous teen girl magazine).

The "Ask Holly" section never included real pertinent questions like, "Am I still a good friend if I narc on someone who looks like they might have ODed?" or "My period is two weeks late - what do I do?" The questions were always so theologically simple I could have recited responses in my sleep. "My brother is a jerk sometimes, but I know God wants us to love everyone. How can we get along?" I doubt the girl who wrote that long-ago letter (or more likely the Dobson intern who did) had a brother who karate kicked her in the head or threw her into coffee tables. If she did, then the crappy advice about praying, submitting, and talking things over with her parents probably didn't do her any good.

For all that I was "sinning" my ass off, I voluntarily went to church each week and my mom was largely willing to go with denial as her choice response to my actions. Because my rebellion appeared contained, unlike my brother's sometimes frightening pain, and because I didn't show signs of overt people pleasing, my mom believed that the close relationship I had with Gig was beneficial. But rebellious and obedient - the two roles my siblings had been assigned - were both obvious when manifested. I spent years desperately trying to figure out what my family assignment was, and finally deduced that I was chosen to be spiritual. Since being spiritual didn't involve being good, for Gig or for me, I didn't have to follow rules. I didn't have to get good grades - I wasn't the smart one. I didn't have to dress the way she likd - I wasn't the pretty one. I figured out exactly how much was required fo me, did that as perfectly as I could, and didn't even try anything outside that scope.

So I became as spiritual as I could, which really means that I believed in as many fairy tales as I could, with the most intensity I could. I believed that demons were at warfare with Christians and that I had been chosen by Gig and God to do battle against them. I believed that I had the power to heal people through my laying of hands and my words of prayer. I thought that if I could just say the right phrase, or the right trigger word, I could get God to move in amazing ways in my life. I spent hours, smoking joints and reading the Bible, trying to get as close to God, as close to Gig, as possible.

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 7

In this week's installment, I'll be posing as Andrew, a married man whose wife doesn't want him to convert to LDS.

You are speaking live with Jule', who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Jule': His this is Jule' and Kenzi, how can we help you?

Me: Hi I'm really interested in the Church of LDS, but my wife has a lot of hesitations.

Jule': What can we do to help?

Me: Well, I wanted some reassurance for her that she won't be treated any differently if she's a member of this church. She's a science teacher at a local community college, and wants to keep working. Also, she doesn't want to have children.

Jule': God will provide a way for everything to work out for the best if you follow his teachings.
(Is this seriously the best response you can come up with?)



Me: well, can you answer some marriage and family life questions for me?

Jule': Of course we can.
(Then why did you give me that craptastic pat answer before?)

Me: Do many women in LDS work in academic careers?
(Long pause...)

Jule': I don't know an exact number, but many women in the church have very academic careers and degrees.
("Many")

Me: Excellent. That's certainly a relief.
She's been worried I would ask her to give up her career to become a stay-at-home mother.

Jule': Education is highly encouraged in our religion.

Me: Really? It seems to me that most LDS youth are encouraged to engage in missionary work, rather than seeking a college degree.
(Cause who needs an education when the rapture's on its way?)

Jule': They are encouraged to do both. Education is stronly advised for both men and women.

Me: So they go to college while doing missionary work, or beforehand?

Jule': Usually afterwards, but some go for a little before they leave on a mission. I personally received my Associates Degree and will work on my Bachelor's when I get home.
(Good for you honey! College=good, unless of course it's BYU.)

Me: Are you a woman?

Jule': Yes

Me: Do you think it's okay for a woman in LDS to never have children - on purpose?

Jule': It's a personal decision between a husband, wife and God.
(God, in LDS, talks only to male prophets, so that's sort of like giving hubby two votes, including the veto power.)

Me: Would other members of the church look down on her for not wanting children? This is a really big concern for her.

Jule': People are different. It depends on the people in the area, but we are encouraged not to look down on anyone and love everyone no matter the choices they make.
(That sounds so sweet - you'd never guess the Mormon church spent oodles on making sure gay Californians couldn't get married!)

Me: She says that women in LDS have fewer opportunities, and that she wants to be free to dress, think, and behave as she wants. What do you think?

Jule': We are not given any fewer opportunities than anyone else. I'm not quite sure what you mean by the think and behave part of the question though.

Me: Well, what are the rules or sort of guidelines for women in LDS?

Jule': The same rules apply to the men as to the women.

Me: But, since I'm head of the household, obviously some things will be different. I mean, I get the final say, right?
(I'm sure she'll say no to this now, but later on when I ask if I should just convert anyway and threaten to leave my wife if she doesn't follow suit, we'll see how she responds then.)

Jule': That's up to you and your wife. You must council together in all family decisions.

Me: What about within the church? I know women are not prophets. Are there other things women can't be?

Jule': Women aren't prophets, bishops, preists, or hold the preisthood.
That's the only difference.

Me: That seems like a pretty big difference, lol.
Does the Church have an official stance on birth control?
(I asked this of a guy in Take ___ and want to see)

Jule': it is a big difference. ha

Me: So how does that difference play out? Are there women who want to be bishops? What happens then?

Jule': no the church doesn't have an official stance on birthcontrol, but if your wondering if it is acceptable, it is.
i don't know of that problem ever arising. as women, we accept and support the men as the leadership of the church.
andrew, we have to go, could we transfer you to someone who will continue to answer your questions?

Me: Yes please

Jule': ok. it was nice talking to you, hopefully we were able to help you out. have a nice day!

Me; Thanks so much for your time

Jule': Has transferred you to:

You are speaking live with Brent, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Brent: Hello Andrew

Me: Hi Brent, how are you?
(Pause while he catches up on reading prior conversation)

Brent: Not too bad. How are you doing today?

Me: Good. I'm interested in LDS, but my wife has concerns.

Brent: Ok I will see if I can help you out. Where would you like to start?

Me: Well, she wonders about why only men are in priesthood or leadership positions in the Church.

Brent: That is a very valid concern. I will see if I can help you out.
The women in the church do have leadership positions, they just have different authority and different responsibilities.
(Different = lesser)

Me: Different how?

Brent: Well in the church there is the priesthood, which as I think you know is only men. However there is the Relief Society for women.
LINK
That link describes more what the relief society is

Me: Okay, so it's essentially charity and missionary work.
But not leadership or doctrinal teaching, right?

Brent: Well. During a typical Sunday service there are 3 meetings (Sacrament, Sunday School and Pristhood/Relief Society). Each ward has a "Relief Society Presidency" which oversees the Relief Society

Me: And that Presidency is run by women, right?

Brent: Does that make sense?
It is.

Me: Yes, I think so. Sacrament for all (overseen by men), Sunday School for all (taught by men and women, I think) and Relief Society for women
But no woman could ever become a member of the priesthood, even if she was well-read in the Book of Mormon and the Bible?

Brent: Yes that is correct. Sunday school is often team-taught (husband and father). For instance my mother and father teach a class together. But it isn't always that way
Correct, the priesthood is reserved for men, however women are blessed because of the priesthood. You cannot use the priesthood for yourself, only for others. So women in a sense have the priesthood through their husbands if they are worthy
(Bullshit!)

Me: Worthy?

Brent: In order to have the priesthood, you must be worthy (keep the commandments, pay tithing, obey the word of wisdom, etc.)

Me: Okay, well I think you've answered my questions on priesthood. I have a few other questions though.
What is the LDS view on evolution?

Brent: We don't have one.

Me: Does BYU teach science courses?

Brent: They do, but I am not familiar with those courses, you would have to look at BYU website

Me: Okay. I just know that evolution is the foundation of all science (bio, chemistry, etc.) so that's a big concern of my wife's

Brent: Andrew I have to run, but can I transfer you again to someone else (sorry about all the transferring)

Me: No, that's okay. I'll try again another day.
(I've got places to be and things to do.)

Brent: Ok. Thank you for your time and concerns. Come back any time
Have a great day!

Me: You too :)

Massive image credits goes to the site Salamander Society

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 1

Why wait for the bible-salesmen to come to you? Chat Live with a Missionary!

"You are speaking live with Spencer, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church."

Spencer: hello how may i help you

Angie: Hi I have some questions about Mormonism/LDS. I'm a college student, with a dual major in american history and middle east studies.

Spencer: ok Angie what questions

Angie: Both Islam and LDS claim to be the completions of the workings of the Jewish and Christian Bibles. How do you know yours is right?


Spencer: Well webelieve that when all the apostles were killed that the athority to lead christ church was lost

Angie: So what happened after it was lost?

Spencer: and this is seen because of all the reformations that occered druing the dark ages

Angie: Okay, so you believe that the other denominations of Christianity are lacking authority, right?

Spencer: because of this loss the true and full gosple needed to be restored to the earth

Angie: What makes you think the gospel in the standard Christian bible is incomplete? Note: I am not a Christian

Spencer: well they all have certain truths but the funness and the athority was taken from the earth when the last of the apostles died
(I'm sure he meant "fullness" but his typos were too cute to correct!)

Angie: How do you know this?

Spencer: in the bible there were prophets who lead the people right

Angie: right, the Bible tells of prophets

Spencer: well in Amos 3:7 we know that god wall alway revile his truth through prophets. were are the prophets today?

Angie: according to Muslims, Muhammed was the prophet of god (Allah means god in Arabic) and according to Mormons Joseph Smith was the prophet, and according to most protestant chrsitians, they're still waiting on a prophet who will come later. Jehovah's Witnesses believe their church leadership are the prophets.

Spencer: right and but most churches now call their leaders prophets but the will not claim that they talk to god still they belive that we have the bible and thats all we need. but i know the bible is great but you need someone who can talk to god and recive interpitations of it

Angie: well no, actually. MANY churches claim to talk directly to god, or through their leaders to god. In pentacostal churches they have "intercessors" who pray and many churches have some who speak in tongues, and others who interpret this as revelation from god. The catholics ask their priests and pope to talk to god and receive inspiration that way. Muslims believe their imams get divine inspiration from god

Spencer: they believe that they talk to god but do not but do notclaim to recive revolation from him

Angie: some do. Faith healers, the pope, and imams all claim to receive revaltion from god

Spencer: ok

Angie: how do mormons believe they receive revelation beyond the bible?

Spencer: you asked earlyer how I know were right yes

Angie: yes, how do you know that your beliefs are correct and the others are incorrect

Spencer: i have prayed to god for myself because i know that god answers our prayers because he loves us and he does not want us to wander in confusion all our lives. have you read the book of mormon

Angie: I would certainly hope no god would desire its followers to be confused. You say that you know god answers your prayers and that you know god loves you. can you explain this?

Spencer: well i know we can get answers and we don't have to take someone elses word for it we can ask. god will let us know fi something is true or not

Angie: I don't know what you mean. Are you saying a revealed truth directly to you, not through a book or through what others tell you?

Spencer: you said your not christian well cani ask what do you belive in

Angie: Sure, but first, can you answer my question? How do you know that what you believe is right, when so many people of different faiths so they know that they are right, and that their god answers their prayers? I don't see how one can choose when they all say the same things

Spencer: one second
(long pause while Spencer gets help)
you can ask for yourself

Angie: Please explain - I don't know what you mean by "ask for myself"

Spencer: get on your knees in a quiet place and ask god if there are prophet today or ask if the bible is true or any questions like that

Angie: mmmm, well how will I know that it is god answering me, and not just the thoughts in my own head or demons trying to deceive me?

Spencer: i know that if you ask in faith you will recive an answr not a voice or an angel but a feeling in your heart a burning or a feeling of peace

Angie: So I'll know it's god if I feel peaceful burning?
I'm just confused, because protestants say the same thing, and so do muslims. and there's a really nice hindu woman on my bus and she says her gods answer her prayers and that she can feel them when she talks to them

Spencer: it is difficult to describe i'll do my best

Angie: thank you.

Spencer: when i was young i didn't know if this church was true my parents said tehy knew but i had just always followed along

Angie: sure, most people end up with the same religion as their parents

Spencer: but when i was 15 a lot of things had been happening in my life and one of my friend asked me why i still went to church how do you know it's true and i didn't have an answer for him or myself

Angie: Right, I think a lot of teenagers of various faiths experience that - wanting to know that what they believe is true

Spencer: so when i got home that day i went into my room and read from the scriptures in the book of mormon there is this chapter in moroni that says if you pray in faith about these thigns the truth of them will be show unto you. it diricult beliveing enuything as a teenager
(at this point I began to wonder how old this missionary was)

Angie: So you wanted to know if Mormonism was right, so you read the Book Mormon, and it said in the chapter Moroni that if you had faith in Mormonism and prayed then you would know Mormonism was true?

Spencer: if i had faith that god would answer me theni would recive an answer
whether it was true or not

Angie: That doesn't make sense to me. I would have to believe that whatever I thought was from god, without knowing for sure it WAS from god, because I had already chosen to believe it before I prayed about it!

Spencer: my church friend all talked about this great burning feeling they got when they prayed for truth

Angie: Is there any way to know that the Mormon religion is true outside of the book of Mormon, like from the world around us, or something that mormons know that other people don't?

Spencer: welll i didn't know it was true all i knew was people said it was true

Angie: right, you didn't want to take someone's word for it. you wanted to know for yourself, I can respect that

Spencer: i didn't want to belive it i wanted to know if it was true. i was also scared because if it was true then i had to live it

Angie: so you don't just believe, no you know that it's true?

Spencer: yeah and it doesn't matter if my parent come and tell me that they don't belive anymore because i know that i'm right

Angie: wow, you sound really certain. can you tell me how you know you're right? I mean, if it's true I'd certainly rather know that. I really care about what is true and want to know as many true things, and believe as few false things, as possible.

Spencer: when i prayed it was different from what many people described. i asked if god loved me because i wanted to experiment with an easy answer. when i did this i waited for an answer and felt myself start to feel just completely safe comfortable that nothing mattered because was loved an i could feel it at that moment

Angie: feeling loved is very nice, yes

Spencer: when i knew that god would answer me i asked if prophet excisted on the earth and if joseph smith was one

Angie: you knew god could answer you because you felt loved when you asked if god loved you, is that right?

(5 minutes later)

Angie: Are you still there Spencer?

---------------------------------------

So what have I learned from this experiment? Well, that if I refrain from "you moron!" type comments I tend to make in comments to YouTube videos and to trolls here *ahem* I get a lot farther. My goal was to get him to start asking questions, by posing as dumb blonde agnostic (not to insult agnostics, you know what I mean). I learned that you can keep the other person on defense by asking all the questions. Notice how when Spencer asked me what I believed, I quickly deflected back to you, Sure but first answer my question. He was trying to change the subject to one that is easier - attacking the beliefs of someone else are much simpler than defending your own beliefs. I learned that bad internet connections can hinder the process (if he didn't just run away, lol). And I learned that you don't always have the opportunity to go back later. I wish I'd asked him while he was still on why he was afraid of god being true, and having to follow the teachings of his church. Finally, I learned that Mormon missionaries aren't required to be good at spelling to represent the church on this website.

Try it for yourselves if you want to get some good debate practice in without an audience: http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/ask-a-question/chat-live

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 2

"You are speaking live with Tyson, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church."

(Chat 1 with Spencer)

Tyson: hello Angie how are you today?

Me: I'm doing well Tyson. How are you?

Tyson: Oh im doin just fine. Do you have any questions for me?

Me: Yes. I want to know how you know that Mormons are right and Muslims are not.

Tyson: Well do you believe in Jesus Christ?
Are you a Muslim?

Me: Well a lot of other people do. I think it's pretty likely that a man named Jesus lived in Israel and had followers. No, I'm not a Muslim. I'm just trying to understand Mormonism better.

Tyson: ok well thats exactly what we believe in. We believe that Jesus Christ came to earth to redeem mankind

Me: redeem them from what?

Tyson: we believe him to be the son of God and only through Jesus Christ can we return to our father in heaven again
Redeem them from their sins.

Me; I see. You believe that Jesus is god's son and that we need him to go to heaven. Where is heaven?
And what do you mean by sin?

Tyson: You see, Jesus Christ Suffered for all of our sins and through him we don't have to live with the guilt of having them anymore

Me: Okay well that's all right. I don't have any guilt about sins. So I guess I'm okay

Tyson: God has given us commandments and when we disobey these commandments, we are distanced from him

Me: the commandments in the bible? or the koran? or int he code of hammurabi? (I know this isn't a holy text, just made me giggle to include it, as he probably has no idea what it is)
How do we know these commands come from god?

Tyson: the commandments are found in the bible and we know they are of god because they were revealed or told to prophets on the earth that we can read of in the bible and learn of their teachings

Me: so which commandments in the bible? ALL of them?
and aren't prophets just men? How do you know they are telling you the word of god, and not just what they think?

Tyson: A commandment is from God and when we disobey any of His commandments we need to be forgiven

Angie: but how do you know it's from god? I don't feel like I need to be forgiven just because I eat shellfish and the bible says that's a command from god.

Tyson: yes the commandments are found in the bible and we know these men are prophets because they were called of God and had the authority to preach the words of god
We can know for ourselves if these words are truough through praying to our heavenly father and asking him

Me: So if someone says he's a prophet, you believe everything he says? I'm just trying to understand

Tyson: no i ask my Father in heaven if the words these people say are true and i can reieve a witness through the holy ghost of what is the truth

Me: god speaks to you when you pray to him? how does he do that?
and if you have to check with god to verify the prophet's words, what is the point of having prophets at all?

Tyson: yes he does through the holy ghost. i want to share with you a scripture that talks about prayer and how we can receive an answer
(Here he gives a link that opens to THIS verse from Moroni) (Link lost - apologies)

Me: there are a lot of holy books and prophets though. how do i know this one is the true word of god, and not the qu'ran written by the prophet Muhammad?

Tyson: did you read that scripture i sent you a link for?

Me: it basically seems to say that if i ask and i believe that god will tell me if it's true, than the holy ghost (?) will explain it to me?
It seems like you have to believe it's true before you ask if it's true. that doesn't make sense to me.

Tyson: what you need to do is believe that God will answer your questions and then you ask him and he'll answer your question through the holy ghost

Me: okay, so the first step is to believe in god, then to believe that he'll answer my questions, and then to ask him and the ghost will answer for him?
Well how do you know that you are worshiping the right god? I don't want to make the wrong choice, because in ever religion god gets upset when you worship a false god

Tyson: the holy ghost answers your questions through a feeling or prompting in your heart

Me: what kind of feeling?

Tyson: I understand that you want to make the right choice and i know that if you ask God with a sincere heart, with real intent you will receive and answer. its hard to explain but the feeling will be a warm feeling deep within your heart that somehow you know, without a doubt, that it is the truth
will you do as this scripture says and pray to God and ask him if this is the correct church

Me: But how will i know which god to pray to? i know that you have faith and i want to know how i can be sure before i make any kind of commitment
okay, but which scripture do I use? The book of mormon? the bible? the koran? I want to know BEFORE I pray to any god that I'm picking the right one, and they all have holy books that say you're only supposed to pray to them

Tyson: well there is only one God and he is our father in heaven

Me: but how do you know he's the one god and not a false god?

Tyson: well you can pray to God and ask him which book is the correct book
because i have received an answer in my life
i know that he lives and he loves every one of us and will answer our prayers

(At this point my ride called to say he was on his way, so unfortunately I had to wrap up the conversation. Once I left though, I kept the applet open so I could get his final words)

Me: I have a ride coming soon, but I'd like to talk you to more. I want to follow the truth
(This is no lie. It's also why I'm an atheist)
That's great that you know that. How can I know it? My Muslim friends say Allah loves them and answers their prayers

Tyson: thats so good to hear and i want you to pray tonight and ask God if this is the truth and ask him if the bible is the word of God
will you do that?
well its an answer only you can recieve for yourself

Me: well no, because i don't know that he isn't a false god, so that's not a risk i'm willing to take without more information
What do you mean I can only receive it for myself? How will I know it's not just thoughts in my brain, or the devil?

Tyson: I know that this church is true and that you will know for yourself that he is a true god through that answer. God answers prayers and he will testify to you what you need to know
i challenge you to kneel down and ask him in faith that he will answer your prayer and i know you will recieve and answer

Me: Tyson my ride is here. I'd really like to talk to you more before I accept your challenge. Will you email me? my email address

Tyson: will you do this for me? just try it and see how you feel
when you come on again to chat just request Tyson and hopefully ill be here to chat

Me: I don't hink you can learn what is true and what is false just by feelings. Feelings are wrong all the time.

Tyson: its not a feeling
its an undeniable witness that this is the truth
it is a prompting from God and will exceed any other feelings you might feel
I have experienced this in my life and i want you to just try and youll know
iknow youll be bless greatly in your life and you are so close to knowing the truth
i want you to try this and know for yourself it is true


So what have I learned this time? Well, I bounced around too much. I should have kept him on any one point of questioning, instead of just throwing bluster at him ala christian evangelists. I really wish I had followed up on "What is the point of prophets if you have to check what they say with god?" Also, not all Mormons are completely dolts at spelling as the last one was.

To be continued... Mwhyahahaha! (I don't know why evil laughter seemed appropriate - it just did. Maybe it was an "undeniable feeling" that "isn't a feeling"?)

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 3

"You are speaking live with Andrew, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church."

(Chat 1 with Spencer)
(Chat 2 with Tyson)

Andrew: Hello Angie!

Me: Hi Andrew :)

Andrew: How may i help you today?
(Already I'm impressed with his use of the Shift key! So much better than the last two dear boys.)

Me: I wanted to ask about LDS and women. What is life like for a Mormon woman?

Andrew: I am not really sure how to answer that. I would say the have the same kind of life as any other woman, just that they are mormon.

(At this point I literally facepalmed myself - it stung a bit.)

Me: Well, okay, I'll be more specific. Are there a lot of single Mormon women in their 30s?

Andrew: you know, I am not sure. To my knowledge there arent, but that either because they havent found the person for them, or they are just waiting for the right time for them to get married.
(I take back that remark about his Shift usage. Or maybe Mormons just have really crappy keyboards?)

Me: Well, what kinds of jobs do women have in the Church?
Like, are they missionaries like you?

Andrew: yeah woman can be missionaries if they want, they have callings in church like sundaschool teachers or young woman teachers, and relief society teachers

Me: So they can teach kids and other women. What about men?

Andrew: that would be under the sunday school teacher also

Me: Oh, okay. I thought Sunday School meant children's church. Do Mormons use birth control?

Andrew: Sunday school is for everyone, its just a title we use for our church lessons. As for Birth Control that is up to the woman. I have heard of people using it, and i have never heard anything against it.

Me: Oh, I always thought they didn't, because you seem to have such big families. That's a relief.
Well, what about prophecy - are women ever prophets?

Andrew: unfortunetly not

Me: What, not ever?

Andrew: nope

Me: Why not?
(Looooong pause. Gotcha mother f$#$er!)

Andrew: its because the men are the ones that hold the priesthood and they are called to have that position, where as woman have more important rolls that man arent capable of doing.

Me: Well, I have two questions.
1) Why are only men in the priesthood?
2) What is more important than leading your community and talking directly to god?

Andrew: Because God has set for that Man are the leaders of his matters. that is in Genesis.
(link)

Me: So god just decided that men get to be leaders and women don't? What if you have a very smart, capable woman with a lot of leadership skills, and a man who isn't very bright or educated and is shy speaking in public? Which one would god choose to make a prophet?

Me: Wait, that verse doesn't say anything about church leadership! That just says Eve will be sad and have lots of babies and that she'll wanna get it on with Adam.
(Oh, I crack myself up sometimes. This is usually when I think they'll end the conversation.)

(Worryingly long pause. Maybe I went too far with the "get it on" comment?)

Me: Andrew?

Andrew: Yes, one moment please

(Now I'm just bored. I wonder what I should make for dinner?)

Andrew: the only answer i have for you is that we will never understand the ways of the lord and why he has said he wants things this way
(link)

Me: Yes, but that verse didn't actually SAY the Lord wants men to be the only ones in the priesthood. So who decided that?

(Yogurt is yummy! Let's see if I finish the carton before Andrew's back with the answer from his mission supervisor.)

(i finished the half the carton and watched one clip of Atheist Nexus on YouTube but now he's back in action!)

Andrew: The Lord

Me: How do you know the Lord decided that?

Andrew: Through out the ages the lord has limited his knowledge and commandments we dont know why
back in the old testament only those of the tribe of levi could have the priesthood, we dont know why, but he limmited it them

Me: I'm just asking what verses or support you have to say that the Lord says women can't be prophets. Please?

Andrew: Here is a talk done by a prophet of God on the idea of a prophetess
(link)

Me: I don't want to know what some guy says. I want to know what GOD says. I'm sure lots of guys would like to see women have to follow them. I only care about what GOD thinks about it.

Andrew: This is God speaking through his prophet
(Another literal facepalm. I gotta quit doing those...)

Me: Give me a moment to read it. Please don't go :)
Wait - he lists all these different places where women were prophetesses in the Bible and then says, "But there is no office, calling, or position of prophetess within the priesthood, nor any other area of jurisdiction, nor were there in olden times such priesthood offices or callings that could have given rise to such usage."
He's contradicting the Bible. God never said women couldn't be prophets - he said the opposite!

Andrew: What i am saying is that modern day prophets are called because of there worthiness of using the priesthood they have. This statement is saying that woman can be, but they are not called to be leaders of Gods church, they may be able to gain revelations.

Me: But why aren't women called to be leaders of God's church? I'm trying to understand

Andrew:...and visions through the holy spirity but they dont hold the priesthood so they are not called as leaders of this church
Please show me in the Bible where it says women were given the priesthood.

Me: Show me where it says they weren't! Deborah was a leader, a judge, and a prophetess. In ancient times where the men pretty much owned the women, not like modern times when women are allowed to divorce, own property, vote, etc. I would think women in the church would be freer now than Deborah was back then.

Andrew: Again Angie, if you can't show me where it says they were given the priesthood, then your argument is pretty flat. My purpose is not to argue here, and I can show you plenty of scriptures where the priesthood was passed to the male leaders of the church.
But I really don't think we're getting anywhere. To best understand this, I invite you to talk with some female members of the LDS church. (AKA "Shut up bitch!")

Me: Well, I just don't see why any woman would join the Mormon church, if they have to be second-class citizens.
I'd love to - are there any female missionaries on the chat server?

Andrew: I appreciate your time and patience with me and hope you find the answers locally that you are searching for
If you feel that they are second-class citizen, then i am truly sorry you have been misniformed
Let me check. One moment please

Me: If women can't have the most important position - prophet - then yes, that is second class. That is not first class.

Andrew: Sorry, there's none available right now

Me: When should I try back?

Andrew: Please try back tomorrow about the same time.
Hopefully there will be a female missionary available

Me: Okay, I guess you don't have the answers I'm looking for about women in your church.

Andrew: I hope you have a great day Angie

Me: You too, Andrew. (Lie) And I hope you start to ask yourself why women don't get to be prophets, and don't settle for things like "god is mysterious".

Andrew: I know the answer, i hope you can come to understand it also
Goodbye angie

And then he clicked off before I could respond - If you know the answer, flipping tell me already! So, what have I learned? Well, before I started I learned from previous posts that ya'll weren't getting the full impact of the pauses. I learned that I'm okay with getting disconnected by the young lad, as I was pretty much two clicks away from saying "You're god is a prick" which is fun, but probably less persuasive of an argument. As long as I can get some really good seeds of doubt planted, it's worth biting my typing tongue (aka "fingers"). Hopefully if nothing else young Andrew realizes that he doesn't know squat about half his fellow Mormons. Maybe he'll start to look at his beliefs a little more closely. Reading the Bible made me an atheist - Might reading the Book of Mormon do the same for him?

I've learned that it always helps to know their holy texts better than they do. Now, I don't know anything really from the BoM, but I know how it was composed by a convicted con man with magic plates and magic stones who put his face in a hat and largely ripped off from Isaiah, so I'm gonna rest on my Bible-Bowl-gold-medal-from-2nd-grade laurels.

Finally, I've learned that seemingly nice young men are totally cool with women getting screwed by the big man in the sky. Man, God's a misogynist prick no matter WHAT kind of underwear you're in!

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