Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 9

It's that special time again - time for Angie to pull out the dumb blonde agnostic routine and chat with a Mormon.

I went with the gender neutral name Terry today, so we'll see how that results. Once again, I have a female missionary. (The first five were all guys. I didn't even know women worked at that BYU computer bank.)

You are speaking live with Bonnie, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the church.

Bonnie: Hi! How can I help you?

Me: Hi Bonnie, I'm interested in learning more about LDS.

Bonnie: That's great. What is your religious background?
(Let's quickly steer the conversation elsewhere. I don't want this to be a referendum on my atheism, but an exploration of why SHE believes something without good reason. Watch how I move.)

Me: Christian.

How about you - were your parents Mormon or did you convert?

Bonnie: My parents were both Mormon, but then they were divorced and my mom stopped practicing. It was my choice. (Don't ya know mom would be fascinating to talk to, but the Church of LDS doesn't exactly keep apostates as missionaries.)

Me: Oh. Sorry about your parents' divorce (genuine). So did you attend when you were little, and then started going back later on in life?

Bonnie: Yes. I always kind of went but didn't start going faithfully until I was about 18.

Me: So what made you go back to it, or commit to it more?

Bonnie: I read the Book of Mormon and that changed my life. I gained a testimony/relationship with my Savior. I realized what is most important in life.

Me: And what is more important in life to you?

Bonnie: God, Jesus Christ, family. That is where true happiness is found. Serving and loving others. (There are parts of these phrases I whole-heartedly agree with. I get a lot of satisfaction out of working on this blog, and part of that comes from knowing it helps others. But part of it is totally self-centered and vain - all autobiography blogs surely must be a little conceited. Right?)

Me: So you like being a Mormon because it gives you happiness

Bonnie: Yes and because this is where the truth is found.

Me: Did you look at other religions, to see which one you liked best, or did you always just know that LDS was right for you?

Truth is something I'm very interested in.

Bonnie: I knew it was true after I read the Book of Mormon.

Me: Was that before or after you were 18 and recommitted yourself to your faith?

Bonnie: After. (I was not expecting this answer. Did she never read BoM as a child in LDS church? That seems doubtful. And also, if it was after she recommitted herself - what made her do that in the first place?)

I know you can know truth as well as you study and pray about these things.

Me: So you didn't look at any other faiths, just Mormonism?

Bonnie: I have been exposed to other faiths since my step-dad is not a member of this Church. I have been to a few different churches with His family.

Me: But you haven't looked into the tenants or truth of Islam or Hindu or Sikh, right?

Bonnie: I have not

They were mostly protestant and christian denominations.
(Ah, so still God, Jesus, etc. that she listed as being the benefits of Mormonism.)

Me: So you don't really know how other religions with other gods compare. Okay. (Summary statements are wonderful.)

So, if you didn't pick LDS because it was better than other religions, why did you?

Bonnie: Because I know it is true.

Me: What are you basing that on? I mean, you didn't rule out the other ones because they were false or something was wrong with their scripture, right? You just "know" that the one you grew up with is true. How?

Bonnie: I prayed about it and asked God. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. If there is only one God there has to be only one true church. All churches have truth, but one must contain the fulness of the truth.

(This has the taste of rote recitation. I can almost hear the droning voices saying that en masse in a high-cielinged room each week. I don't know if Mormons actually have some kind of "statement of the faith" that they reaffirm each week like Catholics and Episcopalians, but I'm guessing if they did, it would sound like THIS. So let's deconstruct it - premise by premise. Seeds of doubt, baby. That's my goal in these. (And boosting readership. I think more people must do searches for "mormon lol" than anything, because I always get a ton of new readers for the Chatting with Mormon series. Hi new readers!))

Me: Let me make sure I understand what you're saying.

You grew up Mormon, but not very religious about it. At 18 you read the Book of Mormon and prayed about it. You didn't look at or try out any other religions in the meantime.

Bonnie: I guess not

Me: When you prayed it felt like God confirmed that everything you'd been taught was true, right?

Why do you suppose that there is exactly one god? What led you to conclude that there's one instead of zero or three or a hundred?

Bonnie: Because it makes sense that there would be only one God. That's the scriptures and prophets teach. (Definition: "makes sense" - "doesn't cause cognitive dissonance with the beliefs I already accept as true.)

Me: In LDS religion, sure.

But in a lot of religions there are more than one god. So why does "one god" make more sense?

Bonnie: It would be too confusing if there were multiple Gods. (Somehow the Hindus and Catholics manage it.)

Me: So you think one god is less confusing. Why do you think that would mean there was only one true church? How do you know that all paths, or many paths, don't lead to god?

Bonnie: Because God has set up one plan. That is how we return to God.

Me: What made you conclude that? What was your thought process like?

Bonnie: I studied and prayed and asked God. (That is not a thought process, sweetheart.)

Me: Do you believe that god is angry with people who follow the wrong religion?

Bonnie:I think he knows the thoughts and intents of their hearts. I don't think He is made but He knows they can be happier with the fulness of truth.

Me: Well, I know the Bible says that God is jealous. So does the Koran. What does the Book of Mormon say?

Bonnie: Same thing.

Me: Okay. So if there is one god, and only one path to him, how do you know that Mormonism is right, instead of Catholicism or Islam or Judaism or something?

Bonnie: I have studied, prayed, asked God, and received an answer.

Me: But you only studied the one religion.

Right?

Bonnie: True. (You're damn right it's true. It's also the *point*.)

Me: Okay. Do you believe that people can be deceived by false teachers or false gods?

Bonnie: I do. That is why it is so important to pray and ask God. He knows everything.
(The claw is our master! The claw chooses who will go and who will stay. The claw!)
C


Me: That's a comforting thought :)
(When you can't say something nice, say something condescending that *sounds* nice!)

Do you believe that demons or the devil can talk to us and tempt us?

Bonnie: I think we can be tempted. Everything that is good comes from God, that which is not good does not come from God.

Me: So we only make good choices if we have god in our lives?

Because Bill Gates is an atheist, and he's really successful, and he's also a good person. He gives a huge portion of his income to charity and does a lot of good. He doesn't have god. So do you mean something different, and I'm just missing the point? :)

(I love Bill Gates as an atheist example. I use Brad and Angelina a lot too, but I'm guessing the liberal "in sin" Hollywood aspects might lose her.)

Bonnie: You were asking if the devil can tempt us, my answer is yes. When we follow those bad choices we are not following God.
(Notice the dodge around my question - what about people who do good without god?)

Me; Okay. So when you prayed about the Book of Mormon, how are you certain that it was God who told you that it was the truth, and not the devil, or just your own thoughts?

Bonnie: Because it made sense and because I felt the Spirit.
("Made sense" can be thought of as "did not cause cognitive dissonance with already held beliefs".)

Me: What did the Spirit feel like?

Bonnie: In Galations 5:22-23 states; But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance
(So not what I was asking. *facepalm*)

Me: So you felt all those things when you were praying and asking if LDS was the right one true church?

Bonnie: Yes

Me: Well, I've felt all those things before too, but I've never asked God if the Book of Mormon was true.

How do you *know* that God/Holy Spirit actually led you to LDS instead of just your own thoughts and feelings?

Most people, all over the world, end up following as adults the religion they were raised in as little kids. So I wonder if that's the real reason people end up in a religion, and not because one of them is true. (Especially not one of the *tiniest* ones.)

Bonnie: Because it made sense and I know that it was the Spirit.
(I know because I know because I don't know what "know" means.)

I actually served on a mission and had the wonderful opportunity to teach people about the church who grew up in other faiths

Me: That sounds like a lot of fun :)
(Well, it's not like she's allowed to go have sex or anything. And besides, religious debate IS fun.)

Bonnie: After they searched it out, prayed, and asked God, they received the same answer.

Me: Well, yes, every religion has some conversion and deconversion. You said your mom doesn't practice anymore, for example.

And your stepdad doesn't think it's true either.

What do you know that they don't?

Bonnie: Right.

He doesn't go to any church.

The reason people fall away, like my mom, is guilt. They make a mistake and forget tht they can be forgiven.

(Scratch! Wow. This is why I hope my kid never gets religion. What an awful way for her to feel about her mom. Of course, I'm assuming that her mom's "mistake" was a sin against god, rather than an actual harm. That would change things. Still, a rather condescending and mean attitude to have towards one's mother at the wise old age of BYU attendance.)

Me: Hmmm. That might be a reason for some people. That isn't why I left Christianity, though.

(Yes, *now* I'm ready to talk about my religious background. I've done the prep work for the bombshell.)

Bonnie: They forget their relationship with God.

Me: Again, that isn't why I left. Have you ever been an apostate?
Is that why you left the church?

Bonnie: I have never been one. (Then shut up about us!) I never really left. I just didn't practice it completely. (So going back to my original question? Yes, you have always been a Mormon.)

Me: Okay. Well, there are a lot of reasons people step away from their faith, but I don't think I've ever heard someone say they left because of guilt about their own actions.
Ever.

Bonnie: I know a lot of people that forgot they could be forgiven and so they left.
(Somehow I'm guessing that's not the interpretation they'd put on it themselves.)

Me: Well, would you like to hear a bit about my religious background?

Bonnie: Sure.

Me: I was raised Christian. I read my Bible, taught Sunday School, and went to church at least once a week. I paid my tithe.

As I got older, I made friends with people who weren't my religion. I was really sad to think they wouldn't be in heave with me after we died.

Bonnie: They will.

Me: Not in the tenants of the religion I grew up in

I used to read my Bible, and pray, and ask God to tell me what was true and what to do, and I tried to lead a good life and honor Him. (most of the time.)

Bonnie: We believe they will.

Me: Okay. I know Mormons and Christians have very different afterlife beliefs, but I think even Mormons have separate levels of heaven, so my friends who were following the "wrong religion" might not have ended up on the same level that I did, right?

(Bonnie: But before we get to that we are in a placed called Spirit World. (Ooh!) This is where we will wait till the Savior comes again. This is where every one of God's children will have the opportunity to accept His truth. It wouldn't be fair for them to be judged on something that they were never taught.

(Look, if I can go to your crappy heaven without believing your crappy religion, then the cost-benefit analysis of Pascal's Wager doesn't really work out well for Mormons.)

Me: I really love learning, so I started to read and learn more about a lot of things - science, and history, and religion. In college a lot of my friends were Muslim.

I felt like I just *knew* that their religions was wrong, and that they were good people but deceived.

Bonnie: It's true. (*snort* Confidence much?)

Me: But I started to ask myself what evidence I had for my beliefs that my Muslim friends didn't have. And you know what? There's not even any evidence that any god even exists! I was totally blown away

Bonnie: What kind of evidence are you looking for?

Me: So I started to look into it further, and I looked at the founding of various religions. I looked at the history of Islam, Christianity, and LDS

Evidence - something that shows WHY religion X is better than religion Y. Or why what religion X claims to be true actually *is* true.

I mean, from an outsider's perspective, you telling me that you read the scripture and prayed and felt like god told you LDS was right, sounds exactly the same as my Muslim friends who read the Koran and prayed and felt like god told them Islam was right.

How do you KNOW you're right?

Bonnie: I can understand how that might seem confusing. (Or batshit.)

Me: Good :)

Bonnie: I guess that's where study and meditation comes in.

Me: Yes, but like I said - other religions have that. People of other faiths list the exact same reasons for why they believe their scriptures are right that you did.

Jews study and meditate on the Torah. Muslims study and meditate on the Koran. Christians study and meditate on the Bible.

Are they all praying to god and just being deceived??

Bonnie: There is a great talk by one of our apostles about acquiring spiritual knowledge that came to mind. Would you take a minute to read it?

Me: Absolutely, Bonnie.

Bonnie: Thanks (link)

Me: You're welcome. I'll write back as soon as I'm done reading. :)

Bonnie: Perfect.

Me: Okay. I have a question about this quote from Joseph Smith. "The greatest achievement mankind can make in this world is to familiarize themselves with divine truth, so thoroughly, so perfectly, that the example or conduct of no creature living in the world can ever turn them away from the knowledge that they have obtained."

Bonnie: Okay. What's your question?

Me: If the most important thing you can do on this earth is learn divine truth (gag me with a harpsichord if *that's* true), aren't you severely limiting yourself by only looking at one religion? Joseph Smith was a man. What if he was deceived?

Bonnie: If there is only one true religion then you would not be limiting yourself.

Me: Yes, but you don't know for certain that it IS the right one. You could be missing the right one because you never even looked past the one you were born into.

(Reeeeealllly loooooong pause. I hope she hasn't scampered like a fluffy bunny!)

Are you still there Bonnie?

Bonnie: I'm here. (Wow, after I called Joseph Smith "just a man" and everything, she's still here!)

Me: What do you know, what reason to believe do you have, that people of other faiths don't have?

Bonnie: It is hard to know what they are feeling. The Spirit will testify differently to me than to you. (Crappy Spirit.) But I know that you can know truth by study and prayer. That is how we acquire scriptual truth. (Point of order, "scriptural truth" has not been shown to, ya know, actually BE true.)

Me: Bonnie, what I'm asking is very simple. What evidence do you have that what you believe is true? What logical reason could you give someone else to explain why your scripture is right, and the other ones that you haven't read or studied are all wrong?

That seems like it should be easy for a missionary to explain. Why is your religion any better than the thousands of other ones that have existed?

Bonnie: I have the Book of Mormon. I have the knowledge of a modern-day prophet. (And I have days of the week underpants*. Neither one tells me why LDS is better than Christian Science. I asked for evidence and you give me scripture?)

Me: And my Muslim friends have the Koran and the wisdom of their Imams. Catholics have the Holy Bible and the wisdom of their Pope. Tibetan Buddhists have their scripture and the Dalai Llama. (Do Buddhistst have scripture? I was banking on her not being able to correct me on that one if I was wrong.)

So what reason do you have for why anyone should pick LDS instead of one of the other religions, or no religion at all?

Bonnie: Because after the death of Christ and His apostles the earth fell into apostasy. God restored truth to the earth through a prophet again. That is why.

Me: But that's only believed by Mormons. No one else believes that, so it's not a verifiable fact you can point to. I mean, just because the Book of Mormon says it's true doesn't mean it is. The Koran says that it's divine truth too. All the scriptures do - that's what makes them scripture.

Bonnie: And anybody can know it is true as they study and read it.

Me: Do you agree that Muslims and Hindus are deceived, and that their religion is man made and not true?

Bonnie: Spiritual truth is available to everybody.

I believe that every church/religion has some truth in it, but not the whole truth. (And nothing but the truth, so help me god?)

Me: Yeah, most religions claim that they're the only right one and that anybody can be saved as soon a they convert.

Why is TRUE for LDS and not true of the others?

Bonnie: Because we believe that this is Jesus Christ's church once again restored to the earth in is fulness. We believe this is where the Priesthood authority, power given to man to act in God's name, is found that provides saving ordinances.

Me: I know what you believe. (Not deeply, but a little after all these chats.)

What I'm asking is: How do you know for certain that Mormons aren't deceived, too - just like Muslims and Buddhists and everybody else?

Bonnie: Because I believe the Lord has revealed truth to me. (Well, isn't that jut a succinct summary on the history of insanity: "I've got specially revealed knowledge!")

Me: I'm not asking about what you believe. I'm asking about what you know. Or WHY you believe it.

There must be some reason that you're a Mormon and not a Muslim. What is the reason?

Bonnie: I have already explained why I believe it I don't know how else to explain it.

Me: So there's no evidence that the things Joseph Smith wrote in the Book of Mormon are actually true. You just believe it because you've never looked at anything else, and you've been a Mormon you're entire life, not just since you were 18. You said you never really stopped being a Mormon.

You don't actually have a reason to believe. It's just what you've always done. Right?

Bonnie: Joseph Smith translated it by the power of God. There is no way he could have made up the Book of Mormon. (*spittake*) I know it is the word of God.

I have many reasons to believe, which I have explained. I just don't know how else to convey it. (You've explained far more than you realize.)

Me: It could easily have been made up. In fact, everyone who knows about the story and isn't a Mormon thinks that he DID make it up.

No, you just said that you felt like it was true, or you felt like god said it was so or you felt like it made sense. But none of those are unique to LDS. Every religious person has those "reasons" for their beliefs.

What you don't have is anything that actually points to it being TRUE. Don't you care if what you believe is true? I know I do. That's why I study so many religions, and so much history and everything else.

Bonnie: I hope that through your study you are able to find truth. (Translation: This is uncomfortable. I'm going to go bye-bye now.)

Me: You too. I think you'd have a much better shot at it if you studied something you hadn't been spoonfed since birth.

It's good to question your faith. If God is real, he'll honor that desire for truth. (And if he's real and won't, then he's a prick not worthy of worship.)

Bonnie: I respect your beleifs. I know these things are true and know that you can know them too as you prayerfully study the Book of Mormon. I have questioned my faith and I have received an answer. It was great talking with you. Have a wonderful day!

Me: Ask some of your friends why they left and really listen to their answers. I"m guess it's not because they forgot they could be forgiven.

Bonnie: Will do. Have a great day! (Exclamation marks mean it's polite for me to go away now!)

Me: You too :)



That was FUN. So what did we learn this time?

It is possible to have an hour long chat with a Mormon and not be sent to Moroni 10 or Nephi 7. And probably some other stuff, too. But this post took forever and it's nearly time to grab the Little Man from the bus stop. Rest assured, I did my best to plant seeds of doubt.

In the meantime, I have to share with you this delightful video my brother sent of Buffy kicking that pansy stalker Edward's ass.



Seriously - vampires that *glitter* in the sun? That's what happens when a MORMON writes a vampire story. The kick-ass-tacular Buffy is created by atheist and secular humanist Joss Whedon.










* It is still Tuesday, right?

** Why is Miss South Carolina considered an idiot for her inane comments, yet Miss My-Gay-Dads-Shouldn't-Marry California was on all the talk shows being toasted for her "bravery"?

Read more!

The Story Continues

So, you remember the post I did on "The Story", right? At the time I didn't embed their Flashy doohickey because I didn't want to violate their Terms and Conditions. I did, however, send them a little note. It was... let's go with "glib". It was glib.

I've decided NOT to believe things without evidence, so I'm going to continue being an atheist. But I'm delighted to embed this Story into my religion-hating blog so people can understand exactly how miserable you want 'em to feel about themselves, in order to accept the "free gift" of submission to an imaginary god. Have a great day!

(Fine then, how do you define glib?) Of course, then I saw the T&C and decided to just use a link for my commentary (found HERE.)

But I've gotten email responses to my submission. I wasn't expecting a response, and certainly not the very thorough one of the two. I've shortened these and my responses for content and length. (I'm wordy.) I got his letter first, so we'll call him Christian Guy #1. (Anonymity can be a kindness.) He gets major credit for doing his homework, and actually reading my post on the topic. (How often do theists send you off to read a million things, when they've never finished reading that one book they claim is all important? It's annoying.) Okay, Christian Guy #1.

I received your reply regarding ViewTheStory.com. And, I took the time to carefully read and consider what you wrote on your blog. I hope you find this response is fair and kind.

For what it's worth, we have absolutely no problems with people who are not Christians posting "The Story" on their website. And, we recognize people disagree with the Bible for a variety of reasons and with differing degrees of sentiment. We're not offended by those who disagree with the message of the Bible. At some point, every Christian has disagreed with the Bible in word or deed...how else do we become Christians unless at some point we were non-Christians?

In regards to our terms, you may be surprised that our desire was to dissuade those who proclaim to be Christians, yet promote a message inconsistent with the view of the bible. Good examples are those from the KKK whose message is "God hates anyone who isn't white" or those from churches who pick-and-choose what God hates the most (ie "God hates fags", "God hates Democrats", "God hates Republicans", "God hates..."). Certainly, throughout history, there have been atrocious acts (the Crusades, etc) done in the name of "Jesus", but I can find no evidence in the Bible that Jesus supported those false claims. How can some "Christian" Americans really
believe the God of the universe wants to "bless the USA" more than anywhere else on the planet? How crazy is that? But, haven't there been plenty of atrocious acts (Hitler, etc) in the name of "no religion" too? So, it would be equally unfair and untrue to say all atheists want to exterminate anyone who believes in God. Our terms were meant to protect our organization from being associated with those who would modify the bible for some sort of hate revival...all in the name of Jesus.

We think the Bible is clear that God hates sin, but God loves sinners. And, it also seems clear that God is just and cannot allow sin to go unpunished (similar to our judicial system...you break a law and you go to jail...unless Johnny Cochran is your lawyer). Most would say, "then why is there 'hell' if God is so loving?" My response is what kind of loving God would allow murder or child prostitution to go unpunished? Most agree that crimes should be punished. Few agree on the extent of the punishment. God's punishment is death. However, instead of punishing people for their sins, the God of the Bible chose to punish Himself. God, the Judge, exchanged his judicial robe for the death chair (the Cross) so that even a murderer could
be given a new life. On the one hand the bible's claim is that hell is for sinners. On the other hand, heaven is for sinners saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. That should humble Christians. And, it should change our worldview if we believe this is true.

Reading some of your other posts...I, too, share your negative view of those who use Jesus as a shield and excuse to parade around arrogantly and hatefully with signs. It's hurtful. And, it's inconsistent with how the Bible says we're to live. On the other hand, I don't think Christians own the market on hypocrisy, hate, and hurting others. As an example, no one had to teach me as a child to disobey my parents, be selfish with my toys, and be mean to my younger sister...I figured it out on my own. I didn't become a Christian until I was 15. To a lesser degree, I still wrestle with disobedience, selfishness, and being mean. It's just that as an adult, I've become better at disguising them.

After reading your post about "The Story", I disagree with your understanding of the Bible as it relates to what took place in the Garden with Adam and Eve. There is much debate over the Garden among theologians. On the other hand, there's much debate amongst those who hold to the Theory of Evolution. We've easily had 100+ theologians and pastors critique and approve the content. That's not to say they all would've chosen the same words we chose, but they all agreed we did not communicate things inconsistent with the Bible. Certainly we don't think what we've created is "perfect". Rather, we see no evidence in the Bible that necessitates a
change to what's been paraphrased in "The Story".

I know you believe there is no God. Therefore, anything I communicate about God is most likely foolishness to you. So, I realize my response is at the risk you will completely dismiss my motives, because you think I'm trying to pick a fight or haven't done my research to understand your point-of-view. I realize the Christian message is offensive to those who hold a different view. I do not apologize for our message, because I believe it's true...just as I'm sure you do not apologize for your message, because you believe it's true. Instead, I apologize for those [Christians] who feel the liberty to offend and dismiss the views who of those who disagree with them. It shows just how little we love our neighbor, and it shows just how much we need a Savior. If adding "The Story" to your site helps your cause, then I encourage you to add it with no malice or discontent on our part. I can
only hope you will agree with me that if everyone lived the way Jesus lived/commanded ("love your neighbor as yourself" as an example), the world would be different and I'd like to think better. Looking in the Bible at Philippians, Chapter 2, verses 3 thru 11, as well as Ephesians, Chapter 2, verses 8 and 9, I think these passages accurately capture a biblical view of how Christians are to posture themselves in the world.

Sincerely,
Christian Guy #1
Spread Truth

PS I offer a few books you may want to read (they disagree with your worldview, but I think they explain the Christian worldview clearer than I ever could).
"Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis (a former atheist)
"New Evidence Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell (a former atheist)
"More than a Carpenter" by Josh McDowell
"The Prodigal God" by Tim Keller

And... my response.

Thank you for your thorough and thoughtful letter. I'm going to try to reply in kind, and largely refrain from the pith and sarcasm that are hallmarks of my blog writing style. I understand that those are effective tools for conveying my message to some, but are not the best methods for a constructive conversation.

Ephesians 2 was my very favorite verse of the Bible, during my teen years as an inner city missionary. I loved going into the homes of the bedridden people we delivered hot meals to, and praying with them and reading that passage in particular, because it helped to bridge a racial divide between the volunteers and the people we served. Clearly you are the kind of Christian who values grace over the law, love above judgment, and charity over power. Those are commendable traits and I largely agree with them. In terms of our daily lives, and the morality we use in those, I'm willing to grant that we are probably quite similar.

Since you converted as a teen, I can understand a little better your question "how else do we become Christians unless at some point we were non-Christians?" Frankly, if everyone waited until their teen years or later to make their religious choices, I think there would be much less fundamentalism, and much less child abuse in the world. Unfortunately, religious parents often (usually) don't wait. There's considerable social support of certain actions which declare a child (or even infant's) affiliation with the religious beliefs of his/her parents from an extremely early age. When I was still a Christian, just a few years ago, I baptized my son as an infant. In second grade I won a state-wide Bible Bowl competition, against students from every other Christian school in Florida (which has rather a lot of them). I had zero choice about being a Christian. I was BORN a Christian. And if I'd stayed a Christian, my son wouldn't be given a choice now either. The first book I ever read, at three years old, was Deuteronomy 28. So as much as I love the message of Ephesians 2, I can't quite shake the presence of Deuteronomy 28 in the same book.

A little background: I was raised in a Christian fundamentalist faith healing cult. It's only been in the past few years I've begun to realize how different our beliefs were from mainstream Christian doctrine. However, I am extremely aware of various Christian denominational beliefs. Throughout my life I was a regular member at seven different denominations, ranging from Vineyard Christian Fellowship and Episcopal to Baptist and non-denominational charismatic. Sadly, when someone says to me, "I'm a Christian" I really have no idea what they believe, what they value, or how they live their lives. It's a word that has become so broad it is practically meaningless. I have a friend who attends church maybe three times a year, reads her Bible a little more often, smokes copious marijuana, and considers herself a Christian. My grandmother who led a cult that led to the deaths of dozens of kids, some in her presence and some not, also calls herself a Christian. The Pope recently said that anyone who is not a Roman Catholic is *not* a Christian. No one agrees on the word, but everyone behaves as if we do.

My objections with moderate, liberal Christianity are simple. (When I say "liberal" that's in opposition to fundamentalism, rather than conservatism or political party.) I think that as long as you subscribe to the same religion and book, then fundamentalism is always a risk. The book itself is hateful, vile, and misogynstic. I recognize that there is some beautiful poetry, some good common sense advice, and some cool stories, and I understand that you think this is a good guide for how to lead a moral life. But the toxic elements are there, and until you liberal Christians change your name and compile a new Bible that doesn't give rules for slavery, that doesn't tell the rapist how many shekels to pay the girl's father in order to marry her after he's raped her, then I think you're part of the problem. As long as the book says a woman is not permitted to teach a man, then it doesn't matter how many progressive churches employ female pastors - these things go in cycles. In another generation, the liberal churches of today might be totally fundamentalist. All the ingredients are in the book you call Holy.

My second objection is that you provide cover for the atrocious actions of other Christians. It's great for you to tell me you don't agree with them, and that you loathe the hatred and inhumanity spread by some Christians. But I don't hear the moderate Christians enough. Where is the loud Christian counterpoint to Jerry Falwell? There's ten highly-paid (tax free!) bigot televangelists, but where are the ten moderate reasonable guys (or women)? Until I see Christians minding their own flocks, I can't possibly let the moderates of the hook. You ARE your brothers and sisters keeper. Clearly God isn't interevening from heaven to prevent the words and actions of the 9/11 hijackers, Pat Robertson, or Fred Phelps. So if moderate Christians can accept that these things are bad and that God isn't going to stop them, then you should. (A simple start: Sign the petitions on my blog to increase children's rights to health and safe treatment.)

When liberal Christians let the extremists set the policy and the laws, we end up with situations like the death of Harrison Johnson, who died of 400 yellow jacket stings and medical neglect. His parents spent seven hours praying for him, rather than getting him medical attention. He died - he was 2. It was tragic. I used to babysit him. And his parents got away with it. You can kill your kid, if it's for a religious exemption. The CAPTA (Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act of 1978? I believe) details what constitutes medical neglect of a child, but allows that if some form of "religious or spiritual treatment" is being offered instead, then that child isn't being neglected. Never mind that demon exorcisms don't cure cancer, and that dozens of American kids die from religious neglect every year. Christians keep these laws on the books, because they value their own rights to religious expression above the rights of children to live and not be abused and neglected. And that's inexcusable and immoral, and well meaning, kind liberal moderate Christians sat by and did nothing while my grandmother warped my mind and *killed* babies.

You made a comparison between the hypocrisy of some Christians and the misbehavior of yourself as a small child. You said, "No one taught me to" do those things. I don't think the analogy follows, because someone specifically taught you *not* to do those things. Since Christians and their churches claim a moral high ground, and many claim that God/the Bible is the author of morality and that a person *can't* be moral without these, it would be awfully nice if you would teach each other NOT to hit your sisters, or your kids, and not to disobey your parents or the law. A friend of mine runs a blog that is nothing but links and links of stories of clergy sex scandals, child rape, and other minister/clergy offenses. He has over twenty news stories a day on average. I want Christians to quit claiming that being "forgiven" makes you in any way better behaved. And when other Christians stand up and claim those things, I want moderate Christians to tell them why that's wrong or inappropriate or not Biblically sound. I don't want you to sit back and let them do all the talking. They are jerks - we both agree on that.

It sounds good to say that God loves sinners, but he hates sin. Until you start to ask yourself, "Why make us sinners from birth?" As you read in my post, I think the entire concept of the Christian creator God is immoral. The Garden of Eden was a trap. As a small theologically-inclined Christian child I used to wonder what would have happened if Adam and Even hadn't eaten the apple. If some other person did, six or seven or seventy generations later, would the Fall have just been delayed? Of course, since I think this is a story in the same vein as some of my favorite Greek mythology and Egyptian lore, my interest is more theoretical than practical. In practical terms, the story is obviously not true.

All the humans on earth today are not the direct decendents of two humans named Adam and Eve. The earth is over 4 billion years old. We got here through evolution, and you and I have the same number of ribs. But even if the whole story was true, was the set up God designed actually moral? Is an action moral because God said so, or did God declare it so because it is inherently moral on its own, without his will? You said you disagree with my understanding of the passage. Can you please elaborate on that so I can better respond? Thank you.

Regarding hell. I'm a pedophilia survivor, so I think my opinion may have slightly more weight in this. That might just be an appeal to emotion, though, I don't know. But as much as I detest the man who violated me, and as much as I think we should greatly increase the sentencing for child abuse of all kinds, I wouldn't want him to be in hell forever. He was undoubtedly mentally ill. He almost certainly didn't have the social or economic resources to get the help he needed and maybe it wasn't something he even knew how to get help for. I'm certainly not excusing it. I support chemical castration for child rapists, which isn't legal yet because it's considered cruel and unusual punishment. But even I wouldn't torture him forever in hell. It was a finite crime - it deserves a finite punishment, even if that's every day until he dies. Once he's dead, he can't hurt me or anyone else. The threat of him is removed. That's the real purpose of incarceration - to protect the public from the actions of someone who won't play by the rules. The purpose isn't to punish them because we're angry, although that's often how the media seems to cover child abuse stories. I think we should use that anger to change things here on earth - to increase sentences and increase funding for mental health services to poor and indigent people. Imagine if we helped people when they were only thinking of raping a child - got them on medication, had them in therapy, whatever. - instead of just mopping up after someone gets victimized. It's because I can think of better options, or at least have ideas that aren't so black and white that I believe I'm more moral than the God of the Bible. This man hurt *me* personally - a lot more than he hurt some deity, real or imagined. But I wouldn't want him to suffer *forever*. Therefore, I am more loving and more merciful - I have shown more grace - than the God you worship.

What's more, the Bible doesn't say hell is exclusively for pedophiles. Apostasy is the one unforgivable sin - blasphemy of the Holy Spirit! According to the book you call Holy, I'm going to hell forever. I'm getting a worse punishment for not being able to lie to myself, because no one chooses what they believe - you either do or don't, I'm getting a worse punishment from your god for not believing than I would give the man who destroyed my innocence - and you think he's GOOD?

I'll back off now. I realize that's a lot of very strong emotion. I tried to reign myself in, but frankly I'm used to writing for a sympathetic audience so that's affected my communication some. I'm also just kind of horrified about how much I didn't understand of what the Bible actually says for all the years I was a believer. I have a tendency to want to shock people out of it, because for me, knowledge led to atheism and atheism has led to a much, much, much better life.

I don't in any way think that you are trying to pick a fight :) If I have any assumption, it's that you're trying to show "the love of Christ" to me, and I can appreciate that good motive even if I disagree with where that kindness originates, within yourself or a god.

I have a different view of Jesus of Nazareth than you do, so I'll have to agree with you under some limitations. I agree that if everyone adopted an approach to society and social interaction that promoted positive outcomes for the most people, that valued fairness and justice, and provided for those in need, then the world would be a fantastically better place. I agree that if religious wars and religious persecution - of Christians, atheists, or anyone else - were stopped, the world would be better and infinitely safer. I agree that if people behaved in a civil society, and recognized that my rights end where yours begin, that I'd be happier leaving this world to my son. That's why I've adopted the secular humanist lifestyle and ethical philosophy. I think it's something that most liberal or moderate Christians can support, wholeheartedly. You don't have to be an atheist to be a secular humanist, and the ideals of secular humanism are very in-touch with the kindest messages of Jesus and the Bible.

I hope I've informed more than offended. I appreciate your permission to use The Story embedded on my blog, which I will do in the near future. I hope you and yours have a safe and happy month ahead.

Take care,
Angie Jackson

ps I've read and own Mere Christianity and Evidence. Josh McDowell is a former atheist like I'm a former Wiccan. What? I tried it out for three weeks in high school!

pps Here are some recommendations of my own. Just as there is no one Christian worldview, there is no one atheist view. But here are a few books that support my worldview :)

"God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything" by Christopher Hitchens
"Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris
"Escape" by Carolyn Jessop (victim of the FLDS cult that all the mainstream Christians allow to operate illegally).

On the origin of man, check out Talk Origins
If you're feeling very brave, go check out Why Won't God Heal Amputees?

Yeah, I know - I forgot to debunk the whole "Hitler did it for his atheism" garbage, mostly because it's so obviously untrue. (Seriously people, all it takes is ten minutes on Wikipedia to be less of a dumb ass than you are right now.)

The secular humanism angle is a new thing I'm going with. Frankly, I want and need to get the moderate theists on my side, for some of the legislation I want passed and some of the structural social changes I want enacted. Reverend Barry Lynn does immensely more good than harm. His fierce efforts to protect the First Amendment have not gone unnoticed. I'd rather have a few million like him than a few million like Sarah Palin.

If we can get them to drop the name "Christian", and to quit claiming that the Bible is holy, inspired, good, moral, and perfect, then they can keep their god-belief and their happy fuzzy feelings about hippie Jesus. But until they do that - as long as they say the Bible is the Word of God and it tells us how we should live our lives, then they get to be smeared with all the filth of the Catholic church, Ted Haggard, Tim Hagee, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Ken Ham, and all the rest. You align yourselves with them - with their source of justification - and you get painted with that brush. Here's where Christian Guy #2 jumps in to claim being a follower of Jesus Christ is somehow different than being religious.

Here's Christian Guy #2

I hate religion also.:) But I am a follower of Jesus Christ. Thanks for looking at our booklet. "The Story" is a short meta narrative. It covers the basic plot line of the Bible. I know that at this point if your life you are an atheist, but I would love to have your thoughts on what you believe is the "meaning of life". I am not trying to sound like a "Bible Banger", but I do believe that the story of God to be true. I believe that it is rational and based on historical evidence. It is the only story I know that gives answers to the basic questions that all of us have. What other meta narrative provides answers and at the same time provides hope? Hope your willing to continue the discussion!

If you hate religion, why be religious? (Also, not all atheists hate religion, though I most certainly do.) Here's how I responded.

Hi Christian Guy #2,

Do you consider yourself a Christian, or an adherent to the Christian religion or faith? I was just telling someone earlier today that I think it would be swell if all the moderate, non-fundamentalist Christians would re-brand (with an edited book to exclude the atrocities) and a new name to distance themselves from the crazies. I would completely support you in that, but as long as you call yourself a Christian, sadly, you get the burden of the group as a whole. That may sound glib, but I do think there are actually several distinct religions operating under the name "Christian", and so the word has lost some of its ability to define beliefs, attitudes, and practices.

In the broadest sense, I don't think there is a "meaning of life". I don't think a divine deity plotted out the course of my existence, or that this world or our species came to be in any supernatural way. (Because there is simply not enough evidence to convince me.) In the individual sense, however, my life has tremendous meaning and purpose, to me and the people who love me. Raising my son to be a kind, thoughtful, self-sufficient, freethinker with good health and a good education is a lot of my life's meaning at this point. :) Alerting people to cults in our midst, teaching people how to use critical thinking skills and logic to provide a framework for reality, and drafting petitions to Congress to increase the protections of children in the United States also keeps me pretty busy. And, of huge importance to me right now, I'm taking on the project of writing my autobiography, about being raised in a Christian fundamentalist cult and the dangers of continuing to allow churches to self-police. Too many churches hide sexual abuse of children; too many Christians allow religious exemption laws for child medical neglect to remain on the books. Those are the things that give my life meaning. I want to make the world a better place for children today and tomorrow than it was for me.

What gives your life meaning?

I would like to know on what grounds you consider the Bible to be rational or based on historical evidence. I have done a lot of study over the past several years, and have not found this to be the case, so I'd be interested in hearing what evidence you've discovered.

I don't think that the Bible does provide all the answers - it just provides non-answers that create new questions. How can a loving God tolerate hell? Why won't God heal amputees? Why won't God stop false prophets and pedophile priests? Why did God allow the 9/11 hijacking to occur? How do you know you've picked the right god or the right religion?

Even if it did purport to have all the answers, they doesn't mean they're true. They need to be investigated before they can be believed, and the more outlandish the claim is, the more extraordinary the evidence required. I can't choose to believe the earth is flat and I can't choose to believe the Bible is true. All the evidence points otherwise.

Oh, and the Koran proposes to do all the things you claim the Bible does. As does the Book of Mormon, and I'm sure several other holy texts besides. Claiming to have all the answers is a big staple in religion :)

Best wishes,
Angie

Read more!

Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 8

Today I'll be posing as David, asking questions on the nature of certainty and how anyone can really know anything about "god".

You are speaking live with Katie, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Katie: hello

Me: Hi - I'm David.

Katie: how are you?

Me: I'm good, how are you?

Katie: I'm doing well, thanks
what prompted you to come on mormon.org?

Me: I have some questions about god in general and about lds specifically

Katie: great

Me: Why do you believe that Mormonism is the right religion?

Katie: what has led you to have questions about God and the church?

Me: I don't see how people can be so certain they're right, and I wonder what's different about them. (By calling it "different" instead of deficient, I'm allowing Katie to think she has an opportunity to tell me about the difference the Holy Ghost makes.)

Katie: great question
David, God has given us some incredible tools so that we can know truth
scriptures and prayer

Me: Do you mean like the rules of logic and our critical thinking skills?

Katie: let me share a little bit with you about the church
yes! Those are also important tools that he has given us
He teaches us many wonderful truths about who we are and His plan for us
through prophets
and we are invited to read their words
and to pray and ask Him is it is true

God has give us the Bible and in our day he has brought forth the Book of Mormon ("Our day" is the 1820s?)
another testament of JEsus Christ

Me: How do you know those are the right holy books?

Katie: because
I have read them abd pondered their teachings

Me: Not trying to be offensive, but when there are so many other religions and religious texts, how do you know which is right? (Notice how I continually make small social overtures which do not require me to concede a point, or agree with a factually untrue statement. "Not trying to be offensive" sounds polite without ever saying I respect her beliefs or that she should be offended that her podunk little religion sounds exactly like all the others - except the underwear part. You can build social capital by being overtly polite and pleasant. I'll cash in this political capital later.)

Katie: and most importantly I have asked God if it is true
sorry, I didn't mean to answer with just because :)

Me: or if any of them are right?

Katie: by using what you said earlier - our minds and critical thinking skills (Oh Katie, I love you. This couldn't be going any better if you were following a script!)

Me: That's ok :)

Katie: DAvid, let me share with you a little but about someone who had some simmilar questions

Me: Okay, but I'd like us to get back to this point later - about how we can use critical thinking to discern between religions

Katie: sure
that is actually still what I am getting at
as well
David, do you understand the role of a prophet?


Me: I think it's like the Mormon pope - he's always a man; he intercedes with god on behalf of his people; he gets divine revelation; and at least in the case of Catholics is supposed to be infallible. Am I right? (I don't know if Mormons dislike Catholics as much as fundamentalist/evangelical Christians do, but hell, the Prophet is just a less-rich pope.)

Katie: sort of...
God has called prophets from the begining of the earth- since Adam and Eve (Ouch. I remember thinking those were two real actual first humans, some 6,000 years ago.)
He uses a pattern to teach us
He calls righteous men and speaks to them directly- teaching them all about the gospel and His plan for us
HE commands the prophets to teach us
they teach us directly also record their words in scriptures

Me: What has led you to believe all this - that god exists, is concerned with humans, uses prophets, etc.?

Kaite: many things
one is the other part to this pattern that I am sharing

Me: ok (I find that non-committal agreements like this - as in, okay continue your case - are a good way of staying "nice" and keeping the person you're talking to from raising up defenses to communication - like sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "What I Got" by Sublime. Okay, probably not. But it's what *I* like to hum while ignoring the facts around me. Also, doing something "nice" makes someone feel like the owe you, which is often handy.)

Katie: so after God commands His prophest toteach us- and record scriptures
He commands us to read their words and to pray abotu it.
we read scriptures and are taught by prophets and then ask God if they are true
and God answers our prayers (This is self-indoctrination. The social pressure to "hear from God" in a tight community of true believers is overwhelming. In hereditary religion, you've got no choice but to interpret your own inner voice as God. Since you know you're supposed to reach the conclusion your family's dogma is true, the "voice of God" in your head tells you things in complete compliance with what your family and your religion have told you it would. It can feel very persuasive, if you believe it.)

Katie: however, many people choose not to believe or follow prophets
when people reject prophets it is called apostasy (Note: at least from this chat, apostasy for LDS is rejecting prophets, not god. interesting)

Me: I don't think people really have a choice in what they believe. I mean, either you think something is true or you don't, wouldn't you agree? (Here i try to cash in on social capital built up with earlier pleasantries, smileys, "is that rights" and non-committal agreements, but it fell a little short.)

Katie: no
we learn and study and ponder things DAvid

Me: Do you think for one moment you could choose to believe that the earth is flat?

Katie: we learn new things every day

Me: I agree we learn new things every day

Katie: no because I know it is not...
knowledge affects our beliefs
when we learn the gospel

Me: Absolutely - knowledge DOES affect our beliefs

Katie: and Gods teachings we can choose to find out if it is true or not

Me: so we may have a choice in how much and what kind of knowledge we acquire, but I don't think we "choose" our beliefs. You can't choose to believe the earth is flat, because your knowledge prevents that "choice"
(Is it wildly narcissistic to say "Ta-da!" to my computer screen when I think I've made an excellent point? Yes? Oh well.)

Katie: ok
I agree
when you know something you don't have to believe because you know
(Katie, I could kiss you!)

Me: Okay. I think we both totally agree on that. (This is actually pretty significant. If that germ of a worm of an idea gets into her head - that people don't choose to be apostates, but that knowledge affects beliefs - it will make punishment for apostasy unjust in her eyes and may get her to question her own knowledge. Or it might not, but I choose to remain hopeful.)
You said that one of the ways you know LDS is true is that you have studied and prayed over the Bible and BOM, right?

Katie: yes

Me: What about other holy texts, like the Koran?

Katie: let me share a scripture with you about it (Let me guess, Moroni 10? Nephi 5? In eight conversations I've been consistently given the same two passages.)

Me: Okay.

Katie: check out verse 3-5. This is a promise from the Book of Mormon

Me: The url/verse didn't come through

Katie: look for what God is promising us in these verses
let me try again
(link)

Me: Thanks - it worked that time.

Katie: great

Me: I've heard similar things before, from other religions. Ray Comfort of NZ is always talking about talking to god with sincerity, and my Muslim friends have shown me similar verses in the Koran.
Do you think Ray and Muslims are wrong in their religion?

Katie: I know that they are
DAvid, what did God promise in this scripture?

Me: That by praying you can ask him whether or not something is true and he'll tell you
How do you know they are? That's really the crux of the puzzle in my head. How do you know something you only believe? (Agh! I gotta slow myself down. When I ask too many questions, they don't all get answered as thoroughly as they should)

Katie: not something DAvid
the Book of Mormon
if you and pray and ask God if the Book of Mormon is true He will answer your prayers
and if you know that the Book of Mormon is true, you will know that what it teaches is true (Gee, and tautologies are statements that are tautologies.)

Me: Okay, so it's specifically the veracity of that particular book, not a promise to help you know what's true about other areas, right? (Because those might be testable claims!)
What if I pray and ask if the BOM is true and I feel like he's said "No"?

Katie: actually that knowledge helps you out with incredible ammounts of knowledge
that wont happen, but if it did then you would logically know it wasn't true (Okay, ouch on the logic front, but kudos to her crediting a rational reason for disbelief. This only ten minutes after conceding we don't choose to believe/disbelieve. So - excellent progress from Katie.)

Katie: David, I know that the Book of Mormon is true
I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet (and if I say it enough times, I can make myself believe anything)
will you read the Book of Mormon and ask God if it is true?

Me: Sure. But will you do me a favor in return?

Katie: that's great!
I know DAvid, that God will answer your prayers (with "Yes", "No", or "Wait". Same as a jug of milk.)
and you will know that the Book of Mormon is true
and incredible spiritual truths will be unfloded to you!
sure, what can I do for you?

Me: Will you read the Koran and ask god if it is true? Or the teachings of Buddha? Or the Egyptian Book of the Dead?
Because if one of those is right, I want you to find it. And if they're not right and Joseph Smith is the true prophet, they you'll have even more reason and knowledge to back up and inform your belief, like we talked about before. (Or the third stealth option - all the religions are man made, just like all the gods and prophets.)

Katie: that is true ("Booyah!" yells at the monitor are probably equally self-serving, huh?)
do you have a Book of Mormon?

Me: No, I don't. I'll order on through the site today though :)

Katie: wonderful

Me: This has been a really great conversation. I still have more questions.

Katie: DAvid, we also have wonderful missionaries in your area that can come and bring one to you and teach you more about the SAvior
will you meet with them?

Me: But maybe it would better to talk again in a couple weeks, after I've had a chance to read the Book of Mormon and you've had a chance to read the Koran. Then we can talk again, and compare notes. You can help me see why you know that this one is right

Katie: sure

Me: I have a special needs child in the home, so visitors are problematic for us. (Theme music from "Psycho" is playing in my head at the thought of battling off doorstep missionaries as my marker-weilding pants-less toddler runs about yelling "Booyah!" and hitting himself in the head with a stuffed puppy.) I do most of my socializing online as a result. (True. Sad, but true.)

Katie: would you like to set up a time to talk again?
when would work for you?
I see

Me: I would love that Katie :) Weekdays before 2 EST are generally good for me - what's best for you?

Katie: that's fine
I am online Tuesday and Friday mornings from 7am to 11 am EST
come on any time and ask for me

Me: Okay Katie. Will you get a copy of the Koran from your library? I'll order the BOM now and we can talk again soon.

Katie: it has been
thanks for talking with me

Me: Thank you - have a great day. I'm really looking forward to having another conversation about knowledge, belief, and god :)

Thank you for taking the time to chat with us and for your interest in the Church. Please know that you are welcome to worship with us any time, request a visit from Mormon missionaries, order a Book of Mormon, or continue to browse our Web site to learn more answers to life's greatest questions.


What Have We Learned?
That Katie is the best Mormon outta 8 - and what her schedule is.* She was by far the most engaging to talk to, and I felt myself actually being excited to have the conversation with her. While she made a lot of bald assertions and unsupported claims, and her concept of what "knowing" something means is so inclusive as to be fairly meaningless, she could follow a chain of logic or argument from one point to the next without getting lost. So I really am planning on having a future talk with her. I'll just have to remember that I'm "David" when I do so. (For the gender-switching explanation, check out Mormon Chat #5 below.)

I also learned that I need to stick with this particular line for most of my theist/atheist discussions. How do you "know" that something is true. It's the question that got me out of religion and out of god-belief, and it's also the one I probably have the most to say about and have thought about the most. I should never talk about the historicity of Jesus (and frankly, I don't care if a Jefferson Bible-type rabbi actually was wandering around Jerusalem or if Paul made the whole thing up in a fevered dream). I should NEVER talk about the details of any science. (I *should* link people to credible sources like Scientific American, or get back up from a friend who IS knowledgeable about science.) I CAN talk about the Bible. I can't really back anything up that I half-remember from an ACA lecture about the early church or the cannon of the Bible. Now, if I wanted to learn more about those and use them in debate, I could. But for now, I'm gonna zero in on this one. I didn't know how little evidence there was Christ's life as a Christian, but I don't think it would have made a damn bit of difference if I had. I mean, I was a day-age creationist; I was capable of cramming logical fallacies into tightly compartmentalized spaces in my head.

So, I'm gonna go order the Book of Mormon. I'm going to get way too much crap in the mail as a result, probably, but anything to take money out the Mormon church (or any church)'s pocket sounds good to me. Check out their Free Media Gallery. I urge all my readers to order as many materials as they could possibly desire. I don't like the Mormon church spends their money infringing on the rights of gay and lesbian Americans. Let's let them waste it making free Bibles for every atheist that wants to debate a Christian online. And hey, I'm pretty sure you could decorate a dorm room wall with the shiny side of all those DVDs. Or, you could have your own snark-fest, debunking, debating, mocking and maligning the content of these free materials. So come on, make me happy and accept a little junk mail.

Or just have the stuff shipped to your ex-pastor's house. Whatever works for you.**


To catch up on the whole series, please feel free to browse earlier chats.
Chatting with Mormons 1 - On Mormon history and the similarities between LDS and Islam.
Chatting with Mormons 2 - On belief, first use of Moroni 10.
Chatting with Mormons 3 - On women in the LDS church. I injured myself doing faceplams.
Chatting with Mormons 4 - On Joseph Smith's history - till the missionary ran away
Chatting with Mormons 5 - On original sin, hell, and the devil.
Chatting with Mormons 6 - On death an afterlife.
Chatting with Mormons 7 - On science, feminism, and child free by choice.


Finally, here's the kind of conversation I want to eventually have with Katie and other theists like her. This video has the honor of killing my faith :) It's fun to watch now, but I can't tell you how bad I squirmed, trying to come up with justifications that didn't sound pathetic in my own head. Ex-Christian.net, "God is Not Great", and the Atheist Experience helped me through the next bit, and now I'm as loud and proud as it's possible to be. Critical thinking = good.







* Go find your own Mormon.
** DISCLAIMER: Angie the Anti-Theist is a dumb ass with an odd sense of a humor, not a lawyer or law enforcement officer. If you broke the law, I didn't tell you to.

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 6

So I've been absent the past week. I figured the best way to jump back into these conversations on religin, cults, and the weird things people say is through Part 6 of our series Chatting with a Mormon. I'm posing once again as a man, "Aaron" today. Aaron's topic of questioning is the great mystery: Death.


You are speaking live with Ben, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Ben: hello

Me: Hi Ben. A friend of mine is very ill. I'm starting to wonder what happens to us when we die.

Ben: that is a great question
here is a page that is a good place to start learning
link
there are tabs on the left hand side that you can click through and read more
let me know when you are finished

Me: Okay, I've finished.

Ben: what did you learn from it?

Me: So you believe we have spirits that go on after our bodies die, but that they get reunited with our spirits?

Ben: yes, at the resurrection our spirits will be reunited with our bodies.

Me: what's the resurrection? I thought that already happened 2000 years ago on Easter

Ben: it is defined on the page i sent you

Me: Well, it just says that it's a reuniting of body and spirit, but I've never heard of such a thing before

Ben: if you click on he word it gives you a little bit more
(No, it doesn't. It just says the same thing in a little pop-out box.)

Me: why do you need or want a physical body in the afterlife?

Ben: one of the main purposes of coming to this earth was to receive a body
we need our spirit and body to be whole
here is another page you can read
link

Me: So we're whole right now, but when we die we won't be?

Ben: we are mortal right now, when we are resurrected we will be immortal
(See? It's totally worth these little chats just to find out what's so different between Christianity as a whole and that special little faith known as Mormonism.)

Me: It says Jesus was the first to be resurrected, but he raised people from the dead during his ministry on earth
like Lazarus and the centurion's daughter

Ben: their bodies were not glorified, perfected, or immortal

Me: well everything that's physical changes and deteriorates over time, even non-living things
(I love caves.)

Ben: you know the stories about lazaurs and the centurion's daughter but don't know about the resurrection?
are bodies wont following the resurrection

Me: I know about christ's resurrection but I've never heard about us having physical bodies after we're dead, no

Ben: it is a very common theme of the bible, why don't you tell me more about your religious background
I would like to better understand where you are coming from.

Me: Christian from the time I got saved when I was 3 but now I'm not so sure what to believe. (True.) I mean, if all those miracles were happening for 2000 years, why did they suddenly stop?
Here's a link

Ben: have you stopped going to church?

Me: years ago

Ben: as to your question i would like you read a chapter in the Book of Mormon
(Only for holy texts will he find the Shift Key.)
Here it is
link

Me: It seems to be saying that miracles do still happen
but you have to admit that the stories of the bible are pretty fantastic, and nothing like that is actually happening right now.

Ben: they happen everyday

Me: I mean the sun doesn't stop in the sky and there aren't rains of frogs or antyhing happening. It'd be on the evening news if they were.
What kind of miracles happen everyday?

Ben: you have to remember the bible and the book of mormon are condensed histories so the stories in them are going to be the big ones

Me: Well yes, but what kind of big stories like that happen now? You said miracles happen everyday

Ben: link
This article answers your question exactly

Me: The things he describes as "true miracles" or "macro miracles" don't seem very miraculous.
He cites things like people paying their tithe or working in missions. (Seriously dude? Half the stuff he claims is "unexplainable" I personally can explain - the rest can be explained by other humans of non-religious persuasion. WEAK!)
That happens in all kinds of religions - are they miracles when non-mormons choose to pay for their church or mosque's work?

Ben: there are miracles in all religions

Me: But not miracles in the Biblical sense - big, noticeable, large-scale things like the sun stopping in the sky, or all the bodies in the graves of Jerusalem rising up as one
What happened to the big miracles?

(My son and I have a good natured debate on the merits of ice cream for breakfast. We compromise on an empty ice cream cone and some fruity oatmeal.)

Ben: i don't know
maybe we don't have enough faith
or there is no purpose for them at this time

Me: It just seems a shame to me that all the big miracles happened at a time when communication and science were so primitive that miracles couldn't be told to all instantly and obviously, the way such a thing could now
with 24 hour news cycles, advanced technology, science, and the internet
Did you read the article I sent?

Ben: i didn't get one

Me: Here it is (link)

Ben: ok
(Several minutes pass.)

Me: Let me know when you're done

Ben: im done
(Now my son wants to play Mr. Potato Head with me. I'm gonna have to wrap this up soon.)

Me: well how can you believe in prayer when there's not proof it works?
and no miracles?

Ben: God has answered my prayers many times

Me: People of all faiths claim that, but none can prove it
And they claim to worship different gods
(Dora the Explorer to the rescue - my son is well settled and may let me continue chatting.)

Ben: I guess you will never know for yourself until you exercise faith and pray for yourself

Me: Well I tried that for 20 some years and it was a bust. Besides, how do you explain "answered prayers" from people who don't pray to your god? Are there other gods capable of answering prayer?
It seems to me that if God wanted people to know he could work miracles, or answer prayer, he'd do it in an indisputable way, like back in the Bible

Ben: I think God still hears and answers their prayers
it isn't their fault, they have just been misguided.

Me: Even if they're praying to Vishnu or Shiva or Allah? I thought the 10 Commandments were pretty clear on the penalty for praying to false gods.

Me: How do you know you're not the one who's been misguided? (The question that eventually led to my non-belief. How do you know your god is the right one? Can X million Muslims really be wrong? What proof do I have?)

Ben: i guess we will find out in the next life

Me: If God answers prayers or people of all faiths, what is the benefit of being Mormon instead of something else? (I ask this same question of liberal Christian friends who think atheists/other faiths don't necessarily go to hell. It's awfully sweet of them, but not backed up by their doctrine or texts.)


(Loooong pause. Finally, I've found my "stump" question. Time to watch old Atheist Experience clips on YouTube!)

Ben: one for me is having the gift of the holy ghost to be constantly with me.

Me: What is that gift like in your daily life? (Technically, that's not a Mormon-specific "benefit".)

Ben: i find it serves as a source of inspiration, comfort, peace...

Me: Inspiration, comfort and peace are all fine things. People who aren't mormon or even christians or even religious experience those things
What is UNIQUE to Mormonism?

(Stepping away from the computer to deal with the smelliest diaper EVER. What did that boy eat?)

Ben: I guess the best thing for you is to experience it
come to an lds service, read the book of mormon, live all the commandments
and if you still have questions about miracles and blessings then we can talk
im not here to make a sales pitch to you. It sounds like you have already made up your mind on many issues, so the best thing for you is going to be practicing what we teach

Me: So you can't answer it
(By the time they're ready to get off the line anyway, I go whole hog and just push them.)

Ben: then you will know if it is true or not
i just did answer it.
it might not be the answer YOU are looking for

Me: There isn't any unique benefit you can come up with

Ben: but it is an answer.

Me: Okay, so the answer is "There is no reason to be Mormon instead of Muslim or atheist." Right?
So why are you Mormon, if there isn't anything special about it?
(Watched this video while waiting for his response.)

(I don't think he's coming back. This one has had more honest "I don't knows" than most.)
(I've also watched this video.)

Me: Ben?

(My personal trainer, aka, son, has put me through one mile on the treadmill, 150 reps of free weights, and squats - which are much harder, as he rides on my back while I do them. I'm pretty sure Ben ain't coming back.)

So what have I learned? Not much. This morning's chat was really just an excuse to dive back into the habit of religious dialogue. I did learn that Mormons believe we get physical bodies after we die, and that we are mortal now but will be immortal later. In protestant Christianity, I'd learned that we were immortal souls living in mortal bodies, and that once our bodies died we wouldn't need them anymore. If I'd stayed on topic I would have asked him if heaven was a physical place, and if hell was also. I don't know much at all yet about the LDS view of hell and think I'll probably cast that as my next conversation question. It's hard to keep myself on task, learning, when what I really want to do is get these kids to start asking questions of their own. You can't teach critical thinking in one single conversation, but I sure wish I could. Better, more thought out posts coming very soon.

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