"You are speaking live with Andrew, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church."
(Chat 1 with Spencer)
(Chat 2 with Tyson)
Andrew: Hello Angie!
Me: Hi Andrew :)
Andrew: How may i help you today?
(Already I'm impressed with his use of the Shift key! So much better than the last two dear boys.)
Me: I wanted to ask about LDS and women. What is life like for a Mormon woman?
Andrew: I am not really sure how to answer that. I would say the have the same kind of life as any other woman, just that they are mormon.
(At this point I literally facepalmed myself - it stung a bit.)
Me: Well, okay, I'll be more specific. Are there a lot of single Mormon women in their 30s?
Andrew: you know, I am not sure. To my knowledge there arent, but that either because they havent found the person for them, or they are just waiting for the right time for them to get married.
(I take back that remark about his Shift usage. Or maybe Mormons just have really crappy keyboards?)
Me: Well, what kinds of jobs do women have in the Church?
Like, are they missionaries like you?
Andrew: yeah woman can be missionaries if they want, they have callings in church like sundaschool teachers or young woman teachers, and relief society teachers
Me: So they can teach kids and other women. What about men?
Andrew: that would be under the sunday school teacher also
Me: Oh, okay. I thought Sunday School meant children's church. Do Mormons use birth control?
Andrew: Sunday school is for everyone, its just a title we use for our church lessons. As for Birth Control that is up to the woman. I have heard of people using it, and i have never heard anything against it.
Me: Oh, I always thought they didn't, because you seem to have such big families. That's a relief.
Well, what about prophecy - are women ever prophets?
Andrew: unfortunetly not
Me: What, not ever?
Andrew: nope
Me: Why not?
(Looooong pause. Gotcha mother f$#$er!)
Andrew: its because the men are the ones that hold the priesthood and they are called to have that position, where as woman have more important rolls that man arent capable of doing.
Me: Well, I have two questions.
1) Why are only men in the priesthood?
2) What is more important than leading your community and talking directly to god?
Andrew: Because God has set for that Man are the leaders of his matters. that is in Genesis.
(link)
Me: So god just decided that men get to be leaders and women don't? What if you have a very smart, capable woman with a lot of leadership skills, and a man who isn't very bright or educated and is shy speaking in public? Which one would god choose to make a prophet?
Me: Wait, that verse doesn't say anything about church leadership! That just says Eve will be sad and have lots of babies and that she'll wanna get it on with Adam.
(Oh, I crack myself up sometimes. This is usually when I think they'll end the conversation.)
(Worryingly long pause. Maybe I went too far with the "get it on" comment?)
Me: Andrew?
Andrew: Yes, one moment please
(Now I'm just bored. I wonder what I should make for dinner?)
Andrew: the only answer i have for you is that we will never understand the ways of the lord and why he has said he wants things this way
(link)
Me: Yes, but that verse didn't actually SAY the Lord wants men to be the only ones in the priesthood. So who decided that?
(Yogurt is yummy! Let's see if I finish the carton before Andrew's back with the answer from his mission supervisor.)
(i finished the half the carton and watched one clip of Atheist Nexus on YouTube but now he's back in action!)
Andrew: The Lord
Me: How do you know the Lord decided that?
Andrew: Through out the ages the lord has limited his knowledge and commandments we dont know why
back in the old testament only those of the tribe of levi could have the priesthood, we dont know why, but he limmited it them
Me: I'm just asking what verses or support you have to say that the Lord says women can't be prophets. Please?
Andrew: Here is a talk done by a prophet of God on the idea of a prophetess
(link)
Me: I don't want to know what some guy says. I want to know what GOD says. I'm sure lots of guys would like to see women have to follow them. I only care about what GOD thinks about it.
Andrew: This is God speaking through his prophet
(Another literal facepalm. I gotta quit doing those...)
Me: Give me a moment to read it. Please don't go :)
Wait - he lists all these different places where women were prophetesses in the Bible and then says, "But there is no office, calling, or position of prophetess within the priesthood, nor any other area of jurisdiction, nor were there in olden times such priesthood offices or callings that could have given rise to such usage."
He's contradicting the Bible. God never said women couldn't be prophets - he said the opposite!
Andrew: What i am saying is that modern day prophets are called because of there worthiness of using the priesthood they have. This statement is saying that woman can be, but they are not called to be leaders of Gods church, they may be able to gain revelations.
Me: But why aren't women called to be leaders of God's church? I'm trying to understand
Andrew:...and visions through the holy spirity but they dont hold the priesthood so they are not called as leaders of this church
Please show me in the Bible where it says women were given the priesthood.
Me: Show me where it says they weren't! Deborah was a leader, a judge, and a prophetess. In ancient times where the men pretty much owned the women, not like modern times when women are allowed to divorce, own property, vote, etc. I would think women in the church would be freer now than Deborah was back then.
Andrew: Again Angie, if you can't show me where it says they were given the priesthood, then your argument is pretty flat. My purpose is not to argue here, and I can show you plenty of scriptures where the priesthood was passed to the male leaders of the church.
But I really don't think we're getting anywhere. To best understand this, I invite you to talk with some female members of the LDS church. (AKA "Shut up bitch!")
Me: Well, I just don't see why any woman would join the Mormon church, if they have to be second-class citizens.
I'd love to - are there any female missionaries on the chat server?
Andrew: I appreciate your time and patience with me and hope you find the answers locally that you are searching for
If you feel that they are second-class citizen, then i am truly sorry you have been misniformed
Let me check. One moment please
Me: If women can't have the most important position - prophet - then yes, that is second class. That is not first class.
Andrew: Sorry, there's none available right now
Me: When should I try back?
Andrew: Please try back tomorrow about the same time.
Hopefully there will be a female missionary available
Me: Okay, I guess you don't have the answers I'm looking for about women in your church.
Andrew: I hope you have a great day Angie
Me: You too, Andrew. (Lie) And I hope you start to ask yourself why women don't get to be prophets, and don't settle for things like "god is mysterious".
Andrew: I know the answer, i hope you can come to understand it also
Goodbye angie
And then he clicked off before I could respond - If you know the answer, flipping tell me already! So, what have I learned? Well, before I started I learned from previous posts that ya'll weren't getting the full impact of the pauses. I learned that I'm okay with getting disconnected by the young lad, as I was pretty much two clicks away from saying "You're god is a prick" which is fun, but probably less persuasive of an argument. As long as I can get some really good seeds of doubt planted, it's worth biting my typing tongue (aka "fingers"). Hopefully if nothing else young Andrew realizes that he doesn't know squat about half his fellow Mormons. Maybe he'll start to look at his beliefs a little more closely. Reading the Bible made me an atheist - Might reading the Book of Mormon do the same for him?
I've learned that it always helps to know their holy texts better than they do. Now, I don't know anything really from the BoM, but I know how it was composed by a convicted con man with magic plates and magic stones who put his face in a hat and largely ripped off from Isaiah, so I'm gonna rest on my Bible-Bowl-gold-medal-from-2nd-grade laurels.
Finally, I've learned that seemingly nice young men are totally cool with women getting screwed by the big man in the sky. Man, God's a misogynist prick no matter WHAT kind of underwear you're in!
0 comments:
Post a Comment