Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 9

It's that special time again - time for Angie to pull out the dumb blonde agnostic routine and chat with a Mormon.

I went with the gender neutral name Terry today, so we'll see how that results. Once again, I have a female missionary. (The first five were all guys. I didn't even know women worked at that BYU computer bank.)

You are speaking live with Bonnie, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the church.

Bonnie: Hi! How can I help you?

Me: Hi Bonnie, I'm interested in learning more about LDS.

Bonnie: That's great. What is your religious background?
(Let's quickly steer the conversation elsewhere. I don't want this to be a referendum on my atheism, but an exploration of why SHE believes something without good reason. Watch how I move.)

Me: Christian.

How about you - were your parents Mormon or did you convert?

Bonnie: My parents were both Mormon, but then they were divorced and my mom stopped practicing. It was my choice. (Don't ya know mom would be fascinating to talk to, but the Church of LDS doesn't exactly keep apostates as missionaries.)

Me: Oh. Sorry about your parents' divorce (genuine). So did you attend when you were little, and then started going back later on in life?

Bonnie: Yes. I always kind of went but didn't start going faithfully until I was about 18.

Me: So what made you go back to it, or commit to it more?

Bonnie: I read the Book of Mormon and that changed my life. I gained a testimony/relationship with my Savior. I realized what is most important in life.

Me: And what is more important in life to you?

Bonnie: God, Jesus Christ, family. That is where true happiness is found. Serving and loving others. (There are parts of these phrases I whole-heartedly agree with. I get a lot of satisfaction out of working on this blog, and part of that comes from knowing it helps others. But part of it is totally self-centered and vain - all autobiography blogs surely must be a little conceited. Right?)

Me: So you like being a Mormon because it gives you happiness

Bonnie: Yes and because this is where the truth is found.

Me: Did you look at other religions, to see which one you liked best, or did you always just know that LDS was right for you?

Truth is something I'm very interested in.

Bonnie: I knew it was true after I read the Book of Mormon.

Me: Was that before or after you were 18 and recommitted yourself to your faith?

Bonnie: After. (I was not expecting this answer. Did she never read BoM as a child in LDS church? That seems doubtful. And also, if it was after she recommitted herself - what made her do that in the first place?)

I know you can know truth as well as you study and pray about these things.

Me: So you didn't look at any other faiths, just Mormonism?

Bonnie: I have been exposed to other faiths since my step-dad is not a member of this Church. I have been to a few different churches with His family.

Me: But you haven't looked into the tenants or truth of Islam or Hindu or Sikh, right?

Bonnie: I have not

They were mostly protestant and christian denominations.
(Ah, so still God, Jesus, etc. that she listed as being the benefits of Mormonism.)

Me: So you don't really know how other religions with other gods compare. Okay. (Summary statements are wonderful.)

So, if you didn't pick LDS because it was better than other religions, why did you?

Bonnie: Because I know it is true.

Me: What are you basing that on? I mean, you didn't rule out the other ones because they were false or something was wrong with their scripture, right? You just "know" that the one you grew up with is true. How?

Bonnie: I prayed about it and asked God. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. If there is only one God there has to be only one true church. All churches have truth, but one must contain the fulness of the truth.

(This has the taste of rote recitation. I can almost hear the droning voices saying that en masse in a high-cielinged room each week. I don't know if Mormons actually have some kind of "statement of the faith" that they reaffirm each week like Catholics and Episcopalians, but I'm guessing if they did, it would sound like THIS. So let's deconstruct it - premise by premise. Seeds of doubt, baby. That's my goal in these. (And boosting readership. I think more people must do searches for "mormon lol" than anything, because I always get a ton of new readers for the Chatting with Mormon series. Hi new readers!))

Me: Let me make sure I understand what you're saying.

You grew up Mormon, but not very religious about it. At 18 you read the Book of Mormon and prayed about it. You didn't look at or try out any other religions in the meantime.

Bonnie: I guess not

Me: When you prayed it felt like God confirmed that everything you'd been taught was true, right?

Why do you suppose that there is exactly one god? What led you to conclude that there's one instead of zero or three or a hundred?

Bonnie: Because it makes sense that there would be only one God. That's the scriptures and prophets teach. (Definition: "makes sense" - "doesn't cause cognitive dissonance with the beliefs I already accept as true.)

Me: In LDS religion, sure.

But in a lot of religions there are more than one god. So why does "one god" make more sense?

Bonnie: It would be too confusing if there were multiple Gods. (Somehow the Hindus and Catholics manage it.)

Me: So you think one god is less confusing. Why do you think that would mean there was only one true church? How do you know that all paths, or many paths, don't lead to god?

Bonnie: Because God has set up one plan. That is how we return to God.

Me: What made you conclude that? What was your thought process like?

Bonnie: I studied and prayed and asked God. (That is not a thought process, sweetheart.)

Me: Do you believe that god is angry with people who follow the wrong religion?

Bonnie:I think he knows the thoughts and intents of their hearts. I don't think He is made but He knows they can be happier with the fulness of truth.

Me: Well, I know the Bible says that God is jealous. So does the Koran. What does the Book of Mormon say?

Bonnie: Same thing.

Me: Okay. So if there is one god, and only one path to him, how do you know that Mormonism is right, instead of Catholicism or Islam or Judaism or something?

Bonnie: I have studied, prayed, asked God, and received an answer.

Me: But you only studied the one religion.

Right?

Bonnie: True. (You're damn right it's true. It's also the *point*.)

Me: Okay. Do you believe that people can be deceived by false teachers or false gods?

Bonnie: I do. That is why it is so important to pray and ask God. He knows everything.
(The claw is our master! The claw chooses who will go and who will stay. The claw!)
C


Me: That's a comforting thought :)
(When you can't say something nice, say something condescending that *sounds* nice!)

Do you believe that demons or the devil can talk to us and tempt us?

Bonnie: I think we can be tempted. Everything that is good comes from God, that which is not good does not come from God.

Me: So we only make good choices if we have god in our lives?

Because Bill Gates is an atheist, and he's really successful, and he's also a good person. He gives a huge portion of his income to charity and does a lot of good. He doesn't have god. So do you mean something different, and I'm just missing the point? :)

(I love Bill Gates as an atheist example. I use Brad and Angelina a lot too, but I'm guessing the liberal "in sin" Hollywood aspects might lose her.)

Bonnie: You were asking if the devil can tempt us, my answer is yes. When we follow those bad choices we are not following God.
(Notice the dodge around my question - what about people who do good without god?)

Me; Okay. So when you prayed about the Book of Mormon, how are you certain that it was God who told you that it was the truth, and not the devil, or just your own thoughts?

Bonnie: Because it made sense and because I felt the Spirit.
("Made sense" can be thought of as "did not cause cognitive dissonance with already held beliefs".)

Me: What did the Spirit feel like?

Bonnie: In Galations 5:22-23 states; But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance
(So not what I was asking. *facepalm*)

Me: So you felt all those things when you were praying and asking if LDS was the right one true church?

Bonnie: Yes

Me: Well, I've felt all those things before too, but I've never asked God if the Book of Mormon was true.

How do you *know* that God/Holy Spirit actually led you to LDS instead of just your own thoughts and feelings?

Most people, all over the world, end up following as adults the religion they were raised in as little kids. So I wonder if that's the real reason people end up in a religion, and not because one of them is true. (Especially not one of the *tiniest* ones.)

Bonnie: Because it made sense and I know that it was the Spirit.
(I know because I know because I don't know what "know" means.)

I actually served on a mission and had the wonderful opportunity to teach people about the church who grew up in other faiths

Me: That sounds like a lot of fun :)
(Well, it's not like she's allowed to go have sex or anything. And besides, religious debate IS fun.)

Bonnie: After they searched it out, prayed, and asked God, they received the same answer.

Me: Well, yes, every religion has some conversion and deconversion. You said your mom doesn't practice anymore, for example.

And your stepdad doesn't think it's true either.

What do you know that they don't?

Bonnie: Right.

He doesn't go to any church.

The reason people fall away, like my mom, is guilt. They make a mistake and forget tht they can be forgiven.

(Scratch! Wow. This is why I hope my kid never gets religion. What an awful way for her to feel about her mom. Of course, I'm assuming that her mom's "mistake" was a sin against god, rather than an actual harm. That would change things. Still, a rather condescending and mean attitude to have towards one's mother at the wise old age of BYU attendance.)

Me: Hmmm. That might be a reason for some people. That isn't why I left Christianity, though.

(Yes, *now* I'm ready to talk about my religious background. I've done the prep work for the bombshell.)

Bonnie: They forget their relationship with God.

Me: Again, that isn't why I left. Have you ever been an apostate?
Is that why you left the church?

Bonnie: I have never been one. (Then shut up about us!) I never really left. I just didn't practice it completely. (So going back to my original question? Yes, you have always been a Mormon.)

Me: Okay. Well, there are a lot of reasons people step away from their faith, but I don't think I've ever heard someone say they left because of guilt about their own actions.
Ever.

Bonnie: I know a lot of people that forgot they could be forgiven and so they left.
(Somehow I'm guessing that's not the interpretation they'd put on it themselves.)

Me: Well, would you like to hear a bit about my religious background?

Bonnie: Sure.

Me: I was raised Christian. I read my Bible, taught Sunday School, and went to church at least once a week. I paid my tithe.

As I got older, I made friends with people who weren't my religion. I was really sad to think they wouldn't be in heave with me after we died.

Bonnie: They will.

Me: Not in the tenants of the religion I grew up in

I used to read my Bible, and pray, and ask God to tell me what was true and what to do, and I tried to lead a good life and honor Him. (most of the time.)

Bonnie: We believe they will.

Me: Okay. I know Mormons and Christians have very different afterlife beliefs, but I think even Mormons have separate levels of heaven, so my friends who were following the "wrong religion" might not have ended up on the same level that I did, right?

(Bonnie: But before we get to that we are in a placed called Spirit World. (Ooh!) This is where we will wait till the Savior comes again. This is where every one of God's children will have the opportunity to accept His truth. It wouldn't be fair for them to be judged on something that they were never taught.

(Look, if I can go to your crappy heaven without believing your crappy religion, then the cost-benefit analysis of Pascal's Wager doesn't really work out well for Mormons.)

Me: I really love learning, so I started to read and learn more about a lot of things - science, and history, and religion. In college a lot of my friends were Muslim.

I felt like I just *knew* that their religions was wrong, and that they were good people but deceived.

Bonnie: It's true. (*snort* Confidence much?)

Me: But I started to ask myself what evidence I had for my beliefs that my Muslim friends didn't have. And you know what? There's not even any evidence that any god even exists! I was totally blown away

Bonnie: What kind of evidence are you looking for?

Me: So I started to look into it further, and I looked at the founding of various religions. I looked at the history of Islam, Christianity, and LDS

Evidence - something that shows WHY religion X is better than religion Y. Or why what religion X claims to be true actually *is* true.

I mean, from an outsider's perspective, you telling me that you read the scripture and prayed and felt like god told you LDS was right, sounds exactly the same as my Muslim friends who read the Koran and prayed and felt like god told them Islam was right.

How do you KNOW you're right?

Bonnie: I can understand how that might seem confusing. (Or batshit.)

Me: Good :)

Bonnie: I guess that's where study and meditation comes in.

Me: Yes, but like I said - other religions have that. People of other faiths list the exact same reasons for why they believe their scriptures are right that you did.

Jews study and meditate on the Torah. Muslims study and meditate on the Koran. Christians study and meditate on the Bible.

Are they all praying to god and just being deceived??

Bonnie: There is a great talk by one of our apostles about acquiring spiritual knowledge that came to mind. Would you take a minute to read it?

Me: Absolutely, Bonnie.

Bonnie: Thanks (link)

Me: You're welcome. I'll write back as soon as I'm done reading. :)

Bonnie: Perfect.

Me: Okay. I have a question about this quote from Joseph Smith. "The greatest achievement mankind can make in this world is to familiarize themselves with divine truth, so thoroughly, so perfectly, that the example or conduct of no creature living in the world can ever turn them away from the knowledge that they have obtained."

Bonnie: Okay. What's your question?

Me: If the most important thing you can do on this earth is learn divine truth (gag me with a harpsichord if *that's* true), aren't you severely limiting yourself by only looking at one religion? Joseph Smith was a man. What if he was deceived?

Bonnie: If there is only one true religion then you would not be limiting yourself.

Me: Yes, but you don't know for certain that it IS the right one. You could be missing the right one because you never even looked past the one you were born into.

(Reeeeealllly loooooong pause. I hope she hasn't scampered like a fluffy bunny!)

Are you still there Bonnie?

Bonnie: I'm here. (Wow, after I called Joseph Smith "just a man" and everything, she's still here!)

Me: What do you know, what reason to believe do you have, that people of other faiths don't have?

Bonnie: It is hard to know what they are feeling. The Spirit will testify differently to me than to you. (Crappy Spirit.) But I know that you can know truth by study and prayer. That is how we acquire scriptual truth. (Point of order, "scriptural truth" has not been shown to, ya know, actually BE true.)

Me: Bonnie, what I'm asking is very simple. What evidence do you have that what you believe is true? What logical reason could you give someone else to explain why your scripture is right, and the other ones that you haven't read or studied are all wrong?

That seems like it should be easy for a missionary to explain. Why is your religion any better than the thousands of other ones that have existed?

Bonnie: I have the Book of Mormon. I have the knowledge of a modern-day prophet. (And I have days of the week underpants*. Neither one tells me why LDS is better than Christian Science. I asked for evidence and you give me scripture?)

Me: And my Muslim friends have the Koran and the wisdom of their Imams. Catholics have the Holy Bible and the wisdom of their Pope. Tibetan Buddhists have their scripture and the Dalai Llama. (Do Buddhistst have scripture? I was banking on her not being able to correct me on that one if I was wrong.)

So what reason do you have for why anyone should pick LDS instead of one of the other religions, or no religion at all?

Bonnie: Because after the death of Christ and His apostles the earth fell into apostasy. God restored truth to the earth through a prophet again. That is why.

Me: But that's only believed by Mormons. No one else believes that, so it's not a verifiable fact you can point to. I mean, just because the Book of Mormon says it's true doesn't mean it is. The Koran says that it's divine truth too. All the scriptures do - that's what makes them scripture.

Bonnie: And anybody can know it is true as they study and read it.

Me: Do you agree that Muslims and Hindus are deceived, and that their religion is man made and not true?

Bonnie: Spiritual truth is available to everybody.

I believe that every church/religion has some truth in it, but not the whole truth. (And nothing but the truth, so help me god?)

Me: Yeah, most religions claim that they're the only right one and that anybody can be saved as soon a they convert.

Why is TRUE for LDS and not true of the others?

Bonnie: Because we believe that this is Jesus Christ's church once again restored to the earth in is fulness. We believe this is where the Priesthood authority, power given to man to act in God's name, is found that provides saving ordinances.

Me: I know what you believe. (Not deeply, but a little after all these chats.)

What I'm asking is: How do you know for certain that Mormons aren't deceived, too - just like Muslims and Buddhists and everybody else?

Bonnie: Because I believe the Lord has revealed truth to me. (Well, isn't that jut a succinct summary on the history of insanity: "I've got specially revealed knowledge!")

Me: I'm not asking about what you believe. I'm asking about what you know. Or WHY you believe it.

There must be some reason that you're a Mormon and not a Muslim. What is the reason?

Bonnie: I have already explained why I believe it I don't know how else to explain it.

Me: So there's no evidence that the things Joseph Smith wrote in the Book of Mormon are actually true. You just believe it because you've never looked at anything else, and you've been a Mormon you're entire life, not just since you were 18. You said you never really stopped being a Mormon.

You don't actually have a reason to believe. It's just what you've always done. Right?

Bonnie: Joseph Smith translated it by the power of God. There is no way he could have made up the Book of Mormon. (*spittake*) I know it is the word of God.

I have many reasons to believe, which I have explained. I just don't know how else to convey it. (You've explained far more than you realize.)

Me: It could easily have been made up. In fact, everyone who knows about the story and isn't a Mormon thinks that he DID make it up.

No, you just said that you felt like it was true, or you felt like god said it was so or you felt like it made sense. But none of those are unique to LDS. Every religious person has those "reasons" for their beliefs.

What you don't have is anything that actually points to it being TRUE. Don't you care if what you believe is true? I know I do. That's why I study so many religions, and so much history and everything else.

Bonnie: I hope that through your study you are able to find truth. (Translation: This is uncomfortable. I'm going to go bye-bye now.)

Me: You too. I think you'd have a much better shot at it if you studied something you hadn't been spoonfed since birth.

It's good to question your faith. If God is real, he'll honor that desire for truth. (And if he's real and won't, then he's a prick not worthy of worship.)

Bonnie: I respect your beleifs. I know these things are true and know that you can know them too as you prayerfully study the Book of Mormon. I have questioned my faith and I have received an answer. It was great talking with you. Have a wonderful day!

Me: Ask some of your friends why they left and really listen to their answers. I"m guess it's not because they forgot they could be forgiven.

Bonnie: Will do. Have a great day! (Exclamation marks mean it's polite for me to go away now!)

Me: You too :)



That was FUN. So what did we learn this time?

It is possible to have an hour long chat with a Mormon and not be sent to Moroni 10 or Nephi 7. And probably some other stuff, too. But this post took forever and it's nearly time to grab the Little Man from the bus stop. Rest assured, I did my best to plant seeds of doubt.

In the meantime, I have to share with you this delightful video my brother sent of Buffy kicking that pansy stalker Edward's ass.



Seriously - vampires that *glitter* in the sun? That's what happens when a MORMON writes a vampire story. The kick-ass-tacular Buffy is created by atheist and secular humanist Joss Whedon.










* It is still Tuesday, right?

** Why is Miss South Carolina considered an idiot for her inane comments, yet Miss My-Gay-Dads-Shouldn't-Marry California was on all the talk shows being toasted for her "bravery"?

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Prayer Bugs Me

My mother never pried. She had faults as a mother, but invasion of privacy was never one of them. She knew the importance of private thoughts. While I think her unwillingness to pry into my feelings left her unaware of the pain and mental confusion I was in for a long time, I have to say I value and respect the choice she made to let me be my own person, with my own thoughts and feelings. I could leave my diary open on the coffee table and know that she'd never read it.

Yet, I always felt better writing outside of the house, somewhere secret and quasi-magical. It was down by the blackberry patch at the creek when I was a small child, then onto a copse of trees beside a frozen golf course waterfall at the first place in Iowa, and either in a tree at the edge of a cornfield or on top of a wall holding back a hill from a parking lot at the second place in Iowa. When we first moved back to Florida, in to the apartments, I would sit beneath the willow tree on the bank of the man-made lake; once we moved into the house in the suburbs, I sat at on the dock at the riverfront park down the road.

So it shouldn't have surprised me, at 20 years old and living in my own place, that I still might feel the need to leave to write in peace. I remember crying, gasping in big tantruming toddler gulps of air, sobbing out loud to Jesus. "They say you won't give me more than I handle, but I'm telling you, I can't handle this! It's too hard. It never gets any easier and it never gets any better. Every time I think it's gonna get better, it just gets worse, and I'm tired of fighting all the damn time!" At the time, I was crying about money and how there just didn't seem to be enough of it. At other times, I cried nearly the exact same script, at the end of my rope, utterly desperate, crying heavenward and begging for mercy. Sometimes things would seem to get a little bit better following one of these break downs, but I didn't seem to be getting spiritual fruit or reaping any benefit for the trials I was going through. I was under the impression that when God tested you, when He gave you all that you could handle, when you survived it, you were rewarded for remaining faithful. Wasn't that the whole point of Job?

I feel sad and betrayed when I look back on those times. I knew that I needed help to carry life's burdens, but because I thought God was going to do that - and when there were only one set of footprints in the sand, that meant He was carrying me - I didn't look hard enough at the resources around me. Two weeks later, one night instead of calling on God, I called the suicide hotline. I'm typing this today because that was the right choice. It would still be another year till I got my first mental health diagnosis, and another five years till I found the right combination of diet, exercise, sleep, and medication, but it was a start. I was beginning to deal with my problems, instead of waiting on God to fix my breakfast.

Because God was nothing more than a voice in a head, He could never offer any comfort I wasn't capable of giving myself, or any insight I was incapable of having. Reliance on God, in mental and emotional anguish as in all things, caused me more pain. When I depend on God, when I say "It's all in His hands", I stop taking positive actions in my own life.

I would have gotten a therapist, a diagnosis, and medication sooner if I hadn't been raised in a faith healing cult, certainly. But I think I would have got them sooner still if I hadn't been raised a believer. I hate prayer now. It actively infuriates me when people bow before an imaginary construct, grovel and beg NOTHING, to fix their problems instead of working to fix them themselves.

I still struggle with money and I still struggle with a list of mental disorders. I am still crazy. But I don't have to beg any god to make me sane now - I can take medications, make alterations to my lifestyle, avoid certain foods. I can manage my life without a higher power. Believing in one hindered my drive for self-sufficiency and kept me dependent and child-like long past the time the world expected me to behave as an adult.

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Creation or Evolution: Does it Really Matter?

I've been thinking about the popularity of the series "Chatting with Mormon Missionaries" here on ATAT, and I've found a new religious group to mock with a new batch of readily-available online supplies for my own amusement. Worldwide Church of God (which recently changed its name to Grace Communion International, is described on the official website thus:

We are a Christian denomination with more than 47,000 members, worshiping in about 900 congregations in almost 100 nations and territories. We began in 1934 and our main office is in southern California. We are members of the National Association of Evangelicals. In April 2009, we changed our name in the United States to Grace Communion International. This name better reflects who we are and what we teach. For a press release, click here.

The credible Christian anti-cult site Apologetics Index explains the shift from a previous near-cult church to the current one, which is much more in line with mainstream Christian doctrine. Which doesn't make it true of course, but less noticeable as strange or illogical.

Anyway, onto the pamphlets. Today's doozy had the funniest name, but there were serious contenders I plan to feature in later installments. Onto the funny. "Creation or Evolution: Does It Really Matter What You Believe?" features lovely monkey-and-dinosaur artwork on the cover, and opens with a section blaming our secular society for decreased belief in the Biblical creation story. (Society: 1, Bible: 0). In complaining about this current state of affairs the author writes,

The Bible is banned from classrooms in American schools, and serious discussion of the biblical view of the creation of our universe and our human origin is forbidden. At the same time, criticism of the theory of evolution is at times ruthlessly suppressed in academic and scientific circles.

Okay, first: Bibles aren't banned in schools. Students are free to pray, individually or collectively, to form student groups centered around their faith or religious preference, and may carry personal religious literature. What is banned is school-mandated enforcement of any religious belief or practice. Like prayer, or Bible reading, or creationism. And I love the idea of serious discussion, but the biblical views are ludicrous. Even the Vatican accepts evolution. Finally, scientists are not the ones ruthlessly suppressing any quest towards truth - the literal Bible believers are.

The section bounces around erratically, from claiming Darwin recanted in later years (yeah, pull the other one it's got bells on), to defining evolution by natural selection as "random chance", to claiming that the helplessness of the human infant is proof against evolution because (I freaking love this)

"If evolution is true and humanity is the pinnacle of the evolutionary process, why does a process as basic as human reproduction fly in the face of everything that evolution holds true?"

Wow. Okay, at this time I need to announce something: Evolution is a FACT. The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is supported by mountains of evidence that you can check out for yourself at TalkOrigins.org and is held to be the answer most likely to be true of all possible theories, including Creationism/Intelligent Design. Now that I've gotten that off my chest, who ever claimed humanity was the pinnacle of evolution? It hasn't stopped - it's occurring right now. The arrogance of man's superiority is a religious concept, so I can see why someone with no understanding of the scientific explanation might think this, but it's cocky as hell. At this point I ought to admit that I was a creationist up until a college biology class when I was 24. Let the shaming commence.

The pamphlet next blames scientific errors in the Bible like a geocentric universe on Greek philosophers and mistranslation. Then it jumps to one of the slipperiest slippery slope arguments I've seen since I watched Liz Cheney defending torture and Mormon Californians opposing same sex marriage. First, Darwin's loss of faith in the miracles of the Bible as he learned more about the natural world is presented as a frightening risk if you accept evolution. (And hey, I'd rather be on the side of fossils than fairy tales.) Then, this:

"There is great danger in following in Darwin's footsteps... Can we not lay part of the blame for rampant immorality on society's prevalent values and beliefs - derived to great extent from evolutionary theory?"

Hold up - accepting the Origin of Species as a brilliant work of natural science is the cause of immorality? What about that sin nature Christians are always going on about? It seems to only be the cause of their OWN shortcomings. Our heathen "sins" must be because of evolutionary theory infecting society's morals. Wow. Anyone else need a Dramamine to keep up with that dizzy spin?

Next is claiming paleontologists are con artists scamming an unsuspecting public, stating that there are NO transitional species in the fossil record (see some here!), and states that similarities between species are proof of a common DESIGNER, not a common ancestor. I have to admit this one tickled me a bit.

Here's a fun instance of redefining terms to make them almost fit (like doing a jigsaw puzzle with a straight razor and some krazy glue - I'll make it fit!)

"Evolution literally means simply the successive appearances of perfectly formed life without regard to how it got there. It does not have to refer to Darwinism, which is the doctrine that gradual change led to one species becoming another through the process of natural selection."

Wow, some loaded words in there. Okay, first "Darwinism" is a word used by Creationists, not by the vast majority of intelligent, rational adults who accept the viewpoint of the larger scientific community regarding evolution. So it's not an "ism" and it's not a dogma. It's a scientific theory, which means it has tons of evidence for it like other scientific theories (including gravity, which comes in handy a lot when my purse gets heavy). And on another point, please define "perfectly formed life" for me. Does the appendix factor heavily in the perfection of human life? How about our 32 teeth and jaws designed for 28? Or the aforementioned frailty of human infants? Somehow these complaints posed as objections to evolution aren't mentioned when talking about our perfect lifeforms "appearing" (spontaneously?).

Scientists are roundly abused, adaption within species (a key part of natural selection) is brushed aside as "microevolution" (which apparently has nothing to do with actual evolution), and Darwin is blamed for the Holocaust and other genocides.

The whole pamphlet is 41 pages so I'll just wrap up with this:

"You can choose to hold the view that there is no Creator and that we are simply the result of blind chance, a series of lucky accidents. You can decide for yourself how you should live and what values and principles will determine how you treat others. You can believe that man created God rather than the other way around."

Thanks, I think I will.

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 2

"You are speaking live with Tyson, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church."

(Chat 1 with Spencer)

Tyson: hello Angie how are you today?

Me: I'm doing well Tyson. How are you?

Tyson: Oh im doin just fine. Do you have any questions for me?

Me: Yes. I want to know how you know that Mormons are right and Muslims are not.

Tyson: Well do you believe in Jesus Christ?
Are you a Muslim?

Me: Well a lot of other people do. I think it's pretty likely that a man named Jesus lived in Israel and had followers. No, I'm not a Muslim. I'm just trying to understand Mormonism better.

Tyson: ok well thats exactly what we believe in. We believe that Jesus Christ came to earth to redeem mankind

Me: redeem them from what?

Tyson: we believe him to be the son of God and only through Jesus Christ can we return to our father in heaven again
Redeem them from their sins.

Me; I see. You believe that Jesus is god's son and that we need him to go to heaven. Where is heaven?
And what do you mean by sin?

Tyson: You see, Jesus Christ Suffered for all of our sins and through him we don't have to live with the guilt of having them anymore

Me: Okay well that's all right. I don't have any guilt about sins. So I guess I'm okay

Tyson: God has given us commandments and when we disobey these commandments, we are distanced from him

Me: the commandments in the bible? or the koran? or int he code of hammurabi? (I know this isn't a holy text, just made me giggle to include it, as he probably has no idea what it is)
How do we know these commands come from god?

Tyson: the commandments are found in the bible and we know they are of god because they were revealed or told to prophets on the earth that we can read of in the bible and learn of their teachings

Me: so which commandments in the bible? ALL of them?
and aren't prophets just men? How do you know they are telling you the word of god, and not just what they think?

Tyson: A commandment is from God and when we disobey any of His commandments we need to be forgiven

Angie: but how do you know it's from god? I don't feel like I need to be forgiven just because I eat shellfish and the bible says that's a command from god.

Tyson: yes the commandments are found in the bible and we know these men are prophets because they were called of God and had the authority to preach the words of god
We can know for ourselves if these words are truough through praying to our heavenly father and asking him

Me: So if someone says he's a prophet, you believe everything he says? I'm just trying to understand

Tyson: no i ask my Father in heaven if the words these people say are true and i can reieve a witness through the holy ghost of what is the truth

Me: god speaks to you when you pray to him? how does he do that?
and if you have to check with god to verify the prophet's words, what is the point of having prophets at all?

Tyson: yes he does through the holy ghost. i want to share with you a scripture that talks about prayer and how we can receive an answer
(Here he gives a link that opens to THIS verse from Moroni) (Link lost - apologies)

Me: there are a lot of holy books and prophets though. how do i know this one is the true word of god, and not the qu'ran written by the prophet Muhammad?

Tyson: did you read that scripture i sent you a link for?

Me: it basically seems to say that if i ask and i believe that god will tell me if it's true, than the holy ghost (?) will explain it to me?
It seems like you have to believe it's true before you ask if it's true. that doesn't make sense to me.

Tyson: what you need to do is believe that God will answer your questions and then you ask him and he'll answer your question through the holy ghost

Me: okay, so the first step is to believe in god, then to believe that he'll answer my questions, and then to ask him and the ghost will answer for him?
Well how do you know that you are worshiping the right god? I don't want to make the wrong choice, because in ever religion god gets upset when you worship a false god

Tyson: the holy ghost answers your questions through a feeling or prompting in your heart

Me: what kind of feeling?

Tyson: I understand that you want to make the right choice and i know that if you ask God with a sincere heart, with real intent you will receive and answer. its hard to explain but the feeling will be a warm feeling deep within your heart that somehow you know, without a doubt, that it is the truth
will you do as this scripture says and pray to God and ask him if this is the correct church

Me: But how will i know which god to pray to? i know that you have faith and i want to know how i can be sure before i make any kind of commitment
okay, but which scripture do I use? The book of mormon? the bible? the koran? I want to know BEFORE I pray to any god that I'm picking the right one, and they all have holy books that say you're only supposed to pray to them

Tyson: well there is only one God and he is our father in heaven

Me: but how do you know he's the one god and not a false god?

Tyson: well you can pray to God and ask him which book is the correct book
because i have received an answer in my life
i know that he lives and he loves every one of us and will answer our prayers

(At this point my ride called to say he was on his way, so unfortunately I had to wrap up the conversation. Once I left though, I kept the applet open so I could get his final words)

Me: I have a ride coming soon, but I'd like to talk you to more. I want to follow the truth
(This is no lie. It's also why I'm an atheist)
That's great that you know that. How can I know it? My Muslim friends say Allah loves them and answers their prayers

Tyson: thats so good to hear and i want you to pray tonight and ask God if this is the truth and ask him if the bible is the word of God
will you do that?
well its an answer only you can recieve for yourself

Me: well no, because i don't know that he isn't a false god, so that's not a risk i'm willing to take without more information
What do you mean I can only receive it for myself? How will I know it's not just thoughts in my brain, or the devil?

Tyson: I know that this church is true and that you will know for yourself that he is a true god through that answer. God answers prayers and he will testify to you what you need to know
i challenge you to kneel down and ask him in faith that he will answer your prayer and i know you will recieve and answer

Me: Tyson my ride is here. I'd really like to talk to you more before I accept your challenge. Will you email me? my email address

Tyson: will you do this for me? just try it and see how you feel
when you come on again to chat just request Tyson and hopefully ill be here to chat

Me: I don't hink you can learn what is true and what is false just by feelings. Feelings are wrong all the time.

Tyson: its not a feeling
its an undeniable witness that this is the truth
it is a prompting from God and will exceed any other feelings you might feel
I have experienced this in my life and i want you to just try and youll know
iknow youll be bless greatly in your life and you are so close to knowing the truth
i want you to try this and know for yourself it is true


So what have I learned this time? Well, I bounced around too much. I should have kept him on any one point of questioning, instead of just throwing bluster at him ala christian evangelists. I really wish I had followed up on "What is the point of prophets if you have to check what they say with god?" Also, not all Mormons are completely dolts at spelling as the last one was.

To be continued... Mwhyahahaha! (I don't know why evil laughter seemed appropriate - it just did. Maybe it was an "undeniable feeling" that "isn't a feeling"?)

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