Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 8

Today I'll be posing as David, asking questions on the nature of certainty and how anyone can really know anything about "god".

You are speaking live with Katie, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Katie: hello

Me: Hi - I'm David.

Katie: how are you?

Me: I'm good, how are you?

Katie: I'm doing well, thanks
what prompted you to come on mormon.org?

Me: I have some questions about god in general and about lds specifically

Katie: great

Me: Why do you believe that Mormonism is the right religion?

Katie: what has led you to have questions about God and the church?

Me: I don't see how people can be so certain they're right, and I wonder what's different about them. (By calling it "different" instead of deficient, I'm allowing Katie to think she has an opportunity to tell me about the difference the Holy Ghost makes.)

Katie: great question
David, God has given us some incredible tools so that we can know truth
scriptures and prayer

Me: Do you mean like the rules of logic and our critical thinking skills?

Katie: let me share a little bit with you about the church
yes! Those are also important tools that he has given us
He teaches us many wonderful truths about who we are and His plan for us
through prophets
and we are invited to read their words
and to pray and ask Him is it is true

God has give us the Bible and in our day he has brought forth the Book of Mormon ("Our day" is the 1820s?)
another testament of JEsus Christ

Me: How do you know those are the right holy books?

Katie: because
I have read them abd pondered their teachings

Me: Not trying to be offensive, but when there are so many other religions and religious texts, how do you know which is right? (Notice how I continually make small social overtures which do not require me to concede a point, or agree with a factually untrue statement. "Not trying to be offensive" sounds polite without ever saying I respect her beliefs or that she should be offended that her podunk little religion sounds exactly like all the others - except the underwear part. You can build social capital by being overtly polite and pleasant. I'll cash in this political capital later.)

Katie: and most importantly I have asked God if it is true
sorry, I didn't mean to answer with just because :)

Me: or if any of them are right?

Katie: by using what you said earlier - our minds and critical thinking skills (Oh Katie, I love you. This couldn't be going any better if you were following a script!)

Me: That's ok :)

Katie: DAvid, let me share with you a little but about someone who had some simmilar questions

Me: Okay, but I'd like us to get back to this point later - about how we can use critical thinking to discern between religions

Katie: sure
that is actually still what I am getting at
as well
David, do you understand the role of a prophet?


Me: I think it's like the Mormon pope - he's always a man; he intercedes with god on behalf of his people; he gets divine revelation; and at least in the case of Catholics is supposed to be infallible. Am I right? (I don't know if Mormons dislike Catholics as much as fundamentalist/evangelical Christians do, but hell, the Prophet is just a less-rich pope.)

Katie: sort of...
God has called prophets from the begining of the earth- since Adam and Eve (Ouch. I remember thinking those were two real actual first humans, some 6,000 years ago.)
He uses a pattern to teach us
He calls righteous men and speaks to them directly- teaching them all about the gospel and His plan for us
HE commands the prophets to teach us
they teach us directly also record their words in scriptures

Me: What has led you to believe all this - that god exists, is concerned with humans, uses prophets, etc.?

Kaite: many things
one is the other part to this pattern that I am sharing

Me: ok (I find that non-committal agreements like this - as in, okay continue your case - are a good way of staying "nice" and keeping the person you're talking to from raising up defenses to communication - like sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "What I Got" by Sublime. Okay, probably not. But it's what *I* like to hum while ignoring the facts around me. Also, doing something "nice" makes someone feel like the owe you, which is often handy.)

Katie: so after God commands His prophest toteach us- and record scriptures
He commands us to read their words and to pray abotu it.
we read scriptures and are taught by prophets and then ask God if they are true
and God answers our prayers (This is self-indoctrination. The social pressure to "hear from God" in a tight community of true believers is overwhelming. In hereditary religion, you've got no choice but to interpret your own inner voice as God. Since you know you're supposed to reach the conclusion your family's dogma is true, the "voice of God" in your head tells you things in complete compliance with what your family and your religion have told you it would. It can feel very persuasive, if you believe it.)

Katie: however, many people choose not to believe or follow prophets
when people reject prophets it is called apostasy (Note: at least from this chat, apostasy for LDS is rejecting prophets, not god. interesting)

Me: I don't think people really have a choice in what they believe. I mean, either you think something is true or you don't, wouldn't you agree? (Here i try to cash in on social capital built up with earlier pleasantries, smileys, "is that rights" and non-committal agreements, but it fell a little short.)

Katie: no
we learn and study and ponder things DAvid

Me: Do you think for one moment you could choose to believe that the earth is flat?

Katie: we learn new things every day

Me: I agree we learn new things every day

Katie: no because I know it is not...
knowledge affects our beliefs
when we learn the gospel

Me: Absolutely - knowledge DOES affect our beliefs

Katie: and Gods teachings we can choose to find out if it is true or not

Me: so we may have a choice in how much and what kind of knowledge we acquire, but I don't think we "choose" our beliefs. You can't choose to believe the earth is flat, because your knowledge prevents that "choice"
(Is it wildly narcissistic to say "Ta-da!" to my computer screen when I think I've made an excellent point? Yes? Oh well.)

Katie: ok
I agree
when you know something you don't have to believe because you know
(Katie, I could kiss you!)

Me: Okay. I think we both totally agree on that. (This is actually pretty significant. If that germ of a worm of an idea gets into her head - that people don't choose to be apostates, but that knowledge affects beliefs - it will make punishment for apostasy unjust in her eyes and may get her to question her own knowledge. Or it might not, but I choose to remain hopeful.)
You said that one of the ways you know LDS is true is that you have studied and prayed over the Bible and BOM, right?

Katie: yes

Me: What about other holy texts, like the Koran?

Katie: let me share a scripture with you about it (Let me guess, Moroni 10? Nephi 5? In eight conversations I've been consistently given the same two passages.)

Me: Okay.

Katie: check out verse 3-5. This is a promise from the Book of Mormon

Me: The url/verse didn't come through

Katie: look for what God is promising us in these verses
let me try again
(link)

Me: Thanks - it worked that time.

Katie: great

Me: I've heard similar things before, from other religions. Ray Comfort of NZ is always talking about talking to god with sincerity, and my Muslim friends have shown me similar verses in the Koran.
Do you think Ray and Muslims are wrong in their religion?

Katie: I know that they are
DAvid, what did God promise in this scripture?

Me: That by praying you can ask him whether or not something is true and he'll tell you
How do you know they are? That's really the crux of the puzzle in my head. How do you know something you only believe? (Agh! I gotta slow myself down. When I ask too many questions, they don't all get answered as thoroughly as they should)

Katie: not something DAvid
the Book of Mormon
if you and pray and ask God if the Book of Mormon is true He will answer your prayers
and if you know that the Book of Mormon is true, you will know that what it teaches is true (Gee, and tautologies are statements that are tautologies.)

Me: Okay, so it's specifically the veracity of that particular book, not a promise to help you know what's true about other areas, right? (Because those might be testable claims!)
What if I pray and ask if the BOM is true and I feel like he's said "No"?

Katie: actually that knowledge helps you out with incredible ammounts of knowledge
that wont happen, but if it did then you would logically know it wasn't true (Okay, ouch on the logic front, but kudos to her crediting a rational reason for disbelief. This only ten minutes after conceding we don't choose to believe/disbelieve. So - excellent progress from Katie.)

Katie: David, I know that the Book of Mormon is true
I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet (and if I say it enough times, I can make myself believe anything)
will you read the Book of Mormon and ask God if it is true?

Me: Sure. But will you do me a favor in return?

Katie: that's great!
I know DAvid, that God will answer your prayers (with "Yes", "No", or "Wait". Same as a jug of milk.)
and you will know that the Book of Mormon is true
and incredible spiritual truths will be unfloded to you!
sure, what can I do for you?

Me: Will you read the Koran and ask god if it is true? Or the teachings of Buddha? Or the Egyptian Book of the Dead?
Because if one of those is right, I want you to find it. And if they're not right and Joseph Smith is the true prophet, they you'll have even more reason and knowledge to back up and inform your belief, like we talked about before. (Or the third stealth option - all the religions are man made, just like all the gods and prophets.)

Katie: that is true ("Booyah!" yells at the monitor are probably equally self-serving, huh?)
do you have a Book of Mormon?

Me: No, I don't. I'll order on through the site today though :)

Katie: wonderful

Me: This has been a really great conversation. I still have more questions.

Katie: DAvid, we also have wonderful missionaries in your area that can come and bring one to you and teach you more about the SAvior
will you meet with them?

Me: But maybe it would better to talk again in a couple weeks, after I've had a chance to read the Book of Mormon and you've had a chance to read the Koran. Then we can talk again, and compare notes. You can help me see why you know that this one is right

Katie: sure

Me: I have a special needs child in the home, so visitors are problematic for us. (Theme music from "Psycho" is playing in my head at the thought of battling off doorstep missionaries as my marker-weilding pants-less toddler runs about yelling "Booyah!" and hitting himself in the head with a stuffed puppy.) I do most of my socializing online as a result. (True. Sad, but true.)

Katie: would you like to set up a time to talk again?
when would work for you?
I see

Me: I would love that Katie :) Weekdays before 2 EST are generally good for me - what's best for you?

Katie: that's fine
I am online Tuesday and Friday mornings from 7am to 11 am EST
come on any time and ask for me

Me: Okay Katie. Will you get a copy of the Koran from your library? I'll order the BOM now and we can talk again soon.

Katie: it has been
thanks for talking with me

Me: Thank you - have a great day. I'm really looking forward to having another conversation about knowledge, belief, and god :)

Thank you for taking the time to chat with us and for your interest in the Church. Please know that you are welcome to worship with us any time, request a visit from Mormon missionaries, order a Book of Mormon, or continue to browse our Web site to learn more answers to life's greatest questions.


What Have We Learned?
That Katie is the best Mormon outta 8 - and what her schedule is.* She was by far the most engaging to talk to, and I felt myself actually being excited to have the conversation with her. While she made a lot of bald assertions and unsupported claims, and her concept of what "knowing" something means is so inclusive as to be fairly meaningless, she could follow a chain of logic or argument from one point to the next without getting lost. So I really am planning on having a future talk with her. I'll just have to remember that I'm "David" when I do so. (For the gender-switching explanation, check out Mormon Chat #5 below.)

I also learned that I need to stick with this particular line for most of my theist/atheist discussions. How do you "know" that something is true. It's the question that got me out of religion and out of god-belief, and it's also the one I probably have the most to say about and have thought about the most. I should never talk about the historicity of Jesus (and frankly, I don't care if a Jefferson Bible-type rabbi actually was wandering around Jerusalem or if Paul made the whole thing up in a fevered dream). I should NEVER talk about the details of any science. (I *should* link people to credible sources like Scientific American, or get back up from a friend who IS knowledgeable about science.) I CAN talk about the Bible. I can't really back anything up that I half-remember from an ACA lecture about the early church or the cannon of the Bible. Now, if I wanted to learn more about those and use them in debate, I could. But for now, I'm gonna zero in on this one. I didn't know how little evidence there was Christ's life as a Christian, but I don't think it would have made a damn bit of difference if I had. I mean, I was a day-age creationist; I was capable of cramming logical fallacies into tightly compartmentalized spaces in my head.

So, I'm gonna go order the Book of Mormon. I'm going to get way too much crap in the mail as a result, probably, but anything to take money out the Mormon church (or any church)'s pocket sounds good to me. Check out their Free Media Gallery. I urge all my readers to order as many materials as they could possibly desire. I don't like the Mormon church spends their money infringing on the rights of gay and lesbian Americans. Let's let them waste it making free Bibles for every atheist that wants to debate a Christian online. And hey, I'm pretty sure you could decorate a dorm room wall with the shiny side of all those DVDs. Or, you could have your own snark-fest, debunking, debating, mocking and maligning the content of these free materials. So come on, make me happy and accept a little junk mail.

Or just have the stuff shipped to your ex-pastor's house. Whatever works for you.**


To catch up on the whole series, please feel free to browse earlier chats.
Chatting with Mormons 1 - On Mormon history and the similarities between LDS and Islam.
Chatting with Mormons 2 - On belief, first use of Moroni 10.
Chatting with Mormons 3 - On women in the LDS church. I injured myself doing faceplams.
Chatting with Mormons 4 - On Joseph Smith's history - till the missionary ran away
Chatting with Mormons 5 - On original sin, hell, and the devil.
Chatting with Mormons 6 - On death an afterlife.
Chatting with Mormons 7 - On science, feminism, and child free by choice.


Finally, here's the kind of conversation I want to eventually have with Katie and other theists like her. This video has the honor of killing my faith :) It's fun to watch now, but I can't tell you how bad I squirmed, trying to come up with justifications that didn't sound pathetic in my own head. Ex-Christian.net, "God is Not Great", and the Atheist Experience helped me through the next bit, and now I'm as loud and proud as it's possible to be. Critical thinking = good.







* Go find your own Mormon.
** DISCLAIMER: Angie the Anti-Theist is a dumb ass with an odd sense of a humor, not a lawyer or law enforcement officer. If you broke the law, I didn't tell you to.

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 7

In this week's installment, I'll be posing as Andrew, a married man whose wife doesn't want him to convert to LDS.

You are speaking live with Jule', who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Jule': His this is Jule' and Kenzi, how can we help you?

Me: Hi I'm really interested in the Church of LDS, but my wife has a lot of hesitations.

Jule': What can we do to help?

Me: Well, I wanted some reassurance for her that she won't be treated any differently if she's a member of this church. She's a science teacher at a local community college, and wants to keep working. Also, she doesn't want to have children.

Jule': God will provide a way for everything to work out for the best if you follow his teachings.
(Is this seriously the best response you can come up with?)



Me: well, can you answer some marriage and family life questions for me?

Jule': Of course we can.
(Then why did you give me that craptastic pat answer before?)

Me: Do many women in LDS work in academic careers?
(Long pause...)

Jule': I don't know an exact number, but many women in the church have very academic careers and degrees.
("Many")

Me: Excellent. That's certainly a relief.
She's been worried I would ask her to give up her career to become a stay-at-home mother.

Jule': Education is highly encouraged in our religion.

Me: Really? It seems to me that most LDS youth are encouraged to engage in missionary work, rather than seeking a college degree.
(Cause who needs an education when the rapture's on its way?)

Jule': They are encouraged to do both. Education is stronly advised for both men and women.

Me: So they go to college while doing missionary work, or beforehand?

Jule': Usually afterwards, but some go for a little before they leave on a mission. I personally received my Associates Degree and will work on my Bachelor's when I get home.
(Good for you honey! College=good, unless of course it's BYU.)

Me: Are you a woman?

Jule': Yes

Me: Do you think it's okay for a woman in LDS to never have children - on purpose?

Jule': It's a personal decision between a husband, wife and God.
(God, in LDS, talks only to male prophets, so that's sort of like giving hubby two votes, including the veto power.)

Me: Would other members of the church look down on her for not wanting children? This is a really big concern for her.

Jule': People are different. It depends on the people in the area, but we are encouraged not to look down on anyone and love everyone no matter the choices they make.
(That sounds so sweet - you'd never guess the Mormon church spent oodles on making sure gay Californians couldn't get married!)

Me: She says that women in LDS have fewer opportunities, and that she wants to be free to dress, think, and behave as she wants. What do you think?

Jule': We are not given any fewer opportunities than anyone else. I'm not quite sure what you mean by the think and behave part of the question though.

Me: Well, what are the rules or sort of guidelines for women in LDS?

Jule': The same rules apply to the men as to the women.

Me: But, since I'm head of the household, obviously some things will be different. I mean, I get the final say, right?
(I'm sure she'll say no to this now, but later on when I ask if I should just convert anyway and threaten to leave my wife if she doesn't follow suit, we'll see how she responds then.)

Jule': That's up to you and your wife. You must council together in all family decisions.

Me: What about within the church? I know women are not prophets. Are there other things women can't be?

Jule': Women aren't prophets, bishops, preists, or hold the preisthood.
That's the only difference.

Me: That seems like a pretty big difference, lol.
Does the Church have an official stance on birth control?
(I asked this of a guy in Take ___ and want to see)

Jule': it is a big difference. ha

Me: So how does that difference play out? Are there women who want to be bishops? What happens then?

Jule': no the church doesn't have an official stance on birthcontrol, but if your wondering if it is acceptable, it is.
i don't know of that problem ever arising. as women, we accept and support the men as the leadership of the church.
andrew, we have to go, could we transfer you to someone who will continue to answer your questions?

Me: Yes please

Jule': ok. it was nice talking to you, hopefully we were able to help you out. have a nice day!

Me; Thanks so much for your time

Jule': Has transferred you to:

You are speaking live with Brent, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Brent: Hello Andrew

Me: Hi Brent, how are you?
(Pause while he catches up on reading prior conversation)

Brent: Not too bad. How are you doing today?

Me: Good. I'm interested in LDS, but my wife has concerns.

Brent: Ok I will see if I can help you out. Where would you like to start?

Me: Well, she wonders about why only men are in priesthood or leadership positions in the Church.

Brent: That is a very valid concern. I will see if I can help you out.
The women in the church do have leadership positions, they just have different authority and different responsibilities.
(Different = lesser)

Me: Different how?

Brent: Well in the church there is the priesthood, which as I think you know is only men. However there is the Relief Society for women.
LINK
That link describes more what the relief society is

Me: Okay, so it's essentially charity and missionary work.
But not leadership or doctrinal teaching, right?

Brent: Well. During a typical Sunday service there are 3 meetings (Sacrament, Sunday School and Pristhood/Relief Society). Each ward has a "Relief Society Presidency" which oversees the Relief Society

Me: And that Presidency is run by women, right?

Brent: Does that make sense?
It is.

Me: Yes, I think so. Sacrament for all (overseen by men), Sunday School for all (taught by men and women, I think) and Relief Society for women
But no woman could ever become a member of the priesthood, even if she was well-read in the Book of Mormon and the Bible?

Brent: Yes that is correct. Sunday school is often team-taught (husband and father). For instance my mother and father teach a class together. But it isn't always that way
Correct, the priesthood is reserved for men, however women are blessed because of the priesthood. You cannot use the priesthood for yourself, only for others. So women in a sense have the priesthood through their husbands if they are worthy
(Bullshit!)

Me: Worthy?

Brent: In order to have the priesthood, you must be worthy (keep the commandments, pay tithing, obey the word of wisdom, etc.)

Me: Okay, well I think you've answered my questions on priesthood. I have a few other questions though.
What is the LDS view on evolution?

Brent: We don't have one.

Me: Does BYU teach science courses?

Brent: They do, but I am not familiar with those courses, you would have to look at BYU website

Me: Okay. I just know that evolution is the foundation of all science (bio, chemistry, etc.) so that's a big concern of my wife's

Brent: Andrew I have to run, but can I transfer you again to someone else (sorry about all the transferring)

Me: No, that's okay. I'll try again another day.
(I've got places to be and things to do.)

Brent: Ok. Thank you for your time and concerns. Come back any time
Have a great day!

Me: You too :)

Massive image credits goes to the site Salamander Society

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 6

So I've been absent the past week. I figured the best way to jump back into these conversations on religin, cults, and the weird things people say is through Part 6 of our series Chatting with a Mormon. I'm posing once again as a man, "Aaron" today. Aaron's topic of questioning is the great mystery: Death.


You are speaking live with Ben, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Ben: hello

Me: Hi Ben. A friend of mine is very ill. I'm starting to wonder what happens to us when we die.

Ben: that is a great question
here is a page that is a good place to start learning
link
there are tabs on the left hand side that you can click through and read more
let me know when you are finished

Me: Okay, I've finished.

Ben: what did you learn from it?

Me: So you believe we have spirits that go on after our bodies die, but that they get reunited with our spirits?

Ben: yes, at the resurrection our spirits will be reunited with our bodies.

Me: what's the resurrection? I thought that already happened 2000 years ago on Easter

Ben: it is defined on the page i sent you

Me: Well, it just says that it's a reuniting of body and spirit, but I've never heard of such a thing before

Ben: if you click on he word it gives you a little bit more
(No, it doesn't. It just says the same thing in a little pop-out box.)

Me: why do you need or want a physical body in the afterlife?

Ben: one of the main purposes of coming to this earth was to receive a body
we need our spirit and body to be whole
here is another page you can read
link

Me: So we're whole right now, but when we die we won't be?

Ben: we are mortal right now, when we are resurrected we will be immortal
(See? It's totally worth these little chats just to find out what's so different between Christianity as a whole and that special little faith known as Mormonism.)

Me: It says Jesus was the first to be resurrected, but he raised people from the dead during his ministry on earth
like Lazarus and the centurion's daughter

Ben: their bodies were not glorified, perfected, or immortal

Me: well everything that's physical changes and deteriorates over time, even non-living things
(I love caves.)

Ben: you know the stories about lazaurs and the centurion's daughter but don't know about the resurrection?
are bodies wont following the resurrection

Me: I know about christ's resurrection but I've never heard about us having physical bodies after we're dead, no

Ben: it is a very common theme of the bible, why don't you tell me more about your religious background
I would like to better understand where you are coming from.

Me: Christian from the time I got saved when I was 3 but now I'm not so sure what to believe. (True.) I mean, if all those miracles were happening for 2000 years, why did they suddenly stop?
Here's a link

Ben: have you stopped going to church?

Me: years ago

Ben: as to your question i would like you read a chapter in the Book of Mormon
(Only for holy texts will he find the Shift Key.)
Here it is
link

Me: It seems to be saying that miracles do still happen
but you have to admit that the stories of the bible are pretty fantastic, and nothing like that is actually happening right now.

Ben: they happen everyday

Me: I mean the sun doesn't stop in the sky and there aren't rains of frogs or antyhing happening. It'd be on the evening news if they were.
What kind of miracles happen everyday?

Ben: you have to remember the bible and the book of mormon are condensed histories so the stories in them are going to be the big ones

Me: Well yes, but what kind of big stories like that happen now? You said miracles happen everyday

Ben: link
This article answers your question exactly

Me: The things he describes as "true miracles" or "macro miracles" don't seem very miraculous.
He cites things like people paying their tithe or working in missions. (Seriously dude? Half the stuff he claims is "unexplainable" I personally can explain - the rest can be explained by other humans of non-religious persuasion. WEAK!)
That happens in all kinds of religions - are they miracles when non-mormons choose to pay for their church or mosque's work?

Ben: there are miracles in all religions

Me: But not miracles in the Biblical sense - big, noticeable, large-scale things like the sun stopping in the sky, or all the bodies in the graves of Jerusalem rising up as one
What happened to the big miracles?

(My son and I have a good natured debate on the merits of ice cream for breakfast. We compromise on an empty ice cream cone and some fruity oatmeal.)

Ben: i don't know
maybe we don't have enough faith
or there is no purpose for them at this time

Me: It just seems a shame to me that all the big miracles happened at a time when communication and science were so primitive that miracles couldn't be told to all instantly and obviously, the way such a thing could now
with 24 hour news cycles, advanced technology, science, and the internet
Did you read the article I sent?

Ben: i didn't get one

Me: Here it is (link)

Ben: ok
(Several minutes pass.)

Me: Let me know when you're done

Ben: im done
(Now my son wants to play Mr. Potato Head with me. I'm gonna have to wrap this up soon.)

Me: well how can you believe in prayer when there's not proof it works?
and no miracles?

Ben: God has answered my prayers many times

Me: People of all faiths claim that, but none can prove it
And they claim to worship different gods
(Dora the Explorer to the rescue - my son is well settled and may let me continue chatting.)

Ben: I guess you will never know for yourself until you exercise faith and pray for yourself

Me: Well I tried that for 20 some years and it was a bust. Besides, how do you explain "answered prayers" from people who don't pray to your god? Are there other gods capable of answering prayer?
It seems to me that if God wanted people to know he could work miracles, or answer prayer, he'd do it in an indisputable way, like back in the Bible

Ben: I think God still hears and answers their prayers
it isn't their fault, they have just been misguided.

Me: Even if they're praying to Vishnu or Shiva or Allah? I thought the 10 Commandments were pretty clear on the penalty for praying to false gods.

Me: How do you know you're not the one who's been misguided? (The question that eventually led to my non-belief. How do you know your god is the right one? Can X million Muslims really be wrong? What proof do I have?)

Ben: i guess we will find out in the next life

Me: If God answers prayers or people of all faiths, what is the benefit of being Mormon instead of something else? (I ask this same question of liberal Christian friends who think atheists/other faiths don't necessarily go to hell. It's awfully sweet of them, but not backed up by their doctrine or texts.)


(Loooong pause. Finally, I've found my "stump" question. Time to watch old Atheist Experience clips on YouTube!)

Ben: one for me is having the gift of the holy ghost to be constantly with me.

Me: What is that gift like in your daily life? (Technically, that's not a Mormon-specific "benefit".)

Ben: i find it serves as a source of inspiration, comfort, peace...

Me: Inspiration, comfort and peace are all fine things. People who aren't mormon or even christians or even religious experience those things
What is UNIQUE to Mormonism?

(Stepping away from the computer to deal with the smelliest diaper EVER. What did that boy eat?)

Ben: I guess the best thing for you is to experience it
come to an lds service, read the book of mormon, live all the commandments
and if you still have questions about miracles and blessings then we can talk
im not here to make a sales pitch to you. It sounds like you have already made up your mind on many issues, so the best thing for you is going to be practicing what we teach

Me: So you can't answer it
(By the time they're ready to get off the line anyway, I go whole hog and just push them.)

Ben: then you will know if it is true or not
i just did answer it.
it might not be the answer YOU are looking for

Me: There isn't any unique benefit you can come up with

Ben: but it is an answer.

Me: Okay, so the answer is "There is no reason to be Mormon instead of Muslim or atheist." Right?
So why are you Mormon, if there isn't anything special about it?
(Watched this video while waiting for his response.)

(I don't think he's coming back. This one has had more honest "I don't knows" than most.)
(I've also watched this video.)

Me: Ben?

(My personal trainer, aka, son, has put me through one mile on the treadmill, 150 reps of free weights, and squats - which are much harder, as he rides on my back while I do them. I'm pretty sure Ben ain't coming back.)

So what have I learned? Not much. This morning's chat was really just an excuse to dive back into the habit of religious dialogue. I did learn that Mormons believe we get physical bodies after we die, and that we are mortal now but will be immortal later. In protestant Christianity, I'd learned that we were immortal souls living in mortal bodies, and that once our bodies died we wouldn't need them anymore. If I'd stayed on topic I would have asked him if heaven was a physical place, and if hell was also. I don't know much at all yet about the LDS view of hell and think I'll probably cast that as my next conversation question. It's hard to keep myself on task, learning, when what I really want to do is get these kids to start asking questions of their own. You can't teach critical thinking in one single conversation, but I sure wish I could. Better, more thought out posts coming very soon.

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 4

You are speaking live with James, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

James: Has transferred you to Matthew

You are speaking live with Matthew, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Me: Hello Matthew

Matthew: Hellos Angie! This is Matt, how are you?

Me: I'm doing great. How are you?

Matthew: I'm doing great!
(My, he's chipper!)

Me: How long have you been Mormon?
(translation: How old are you?)

Matthew: 19 years. What about you?
(Even if it all goes downhill from here, Matthew wins the Shift-Key Award!)

Me: Well, I'm not Mormon. I do have some questions though. I studied a bit about LDS founders like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young in American History.

Matthew: Really? What questions do you have?
(His Shift Key use is so endearing!)

Me: Why do you think God waited so long to reveal his words to Joseph Smith? LDS is a pretty young church compared to a lot of world religions.
(Typical hard-question pause. Hmmm... I probably don't have enough time to run outside for a cigarette though. Oooh! He's back already - under 2 minutes!)

Matthew: We know the LDS church to be the restored church of Jesus Christ. After the people rejected and killed Jesus Christ and his apostles, Christ's gospel was taken off the earth. Because of the people's choices at the time, Christ's church wasn't able to be on the earth.

Me: Well, actually the Early Christian church didn't start until after his death, to my understanding. Like during the 1st century AD/CE
(Writing out both versions reminds me of the band AC/DC.)

Matthew: But Joseph Smith restored Christ's church back to the earth in its fullness!
(So far, this one seems so sweet and earnest. I don't want to burst his bubble, and yet my mission to cast seeds of doubt must go on.)

Me: Well, can you explain what you mean by the "restored church"? You say that Christ's gospel was taken off the earth. Do you mean the actual message recorded in the Bible, or something different?

Matthew: Christ's true gospel meaning the authority to act in Christ's name was taken off the earth. His priesthood died out with his apostle's death. Therefore, during the first century after Christ's ressurection all true authority no longer existed on the earth
The same church that Christ had while He was on the earth exists today.

Me: Wow, I've never heard that before. So do you think that the earliest Christians who spread the word and actually put together the Canon of the Bible - they had no authority to do that?

Matthew: I have to go Angie but thank you for talking with me!
Have a great day.

Thank you for taking the time to chat with us and for your interest in the Church. Please know that you are welcome to worship with us any time, request a visit from Mormon missionaries, order a Book of Mormon, or continue to browse our Web site to learn more answers to life's greatest questions.

He hung up on me! And I hadn't even had a chance to be offensive. Since you have to enter your name and email address into the chat applet each time - and I've been using the same one - apparently it only took 4 visits for them to be onto me. Hopefully they're not also logging IP addresses, because you know this is NOT the end.

What have I learned? I've learned to get the doubt in early, in case their supervisor tells them to click off. I've learned that a group of late teen boys can be terrified of the name "Angie" if it poses enough hard questions. (James didn't even say "Hello".) I've learned that not ALL Mormon missionaries like basic typing - in fact, young Matthew does indeed win the Angie the Anti-Theist Shift-Key Award! The grand prize (should he choose to accept) is a series of links to ex-mormon and atheist-friendly websites, and a personal invitation to be my Friend on AtheistNexus.org. (Check out the banner to your right if you'd like to accept this prize yourself!)

Tune in next week when we'll discover whether Mormons track IP addresses...

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 1

Why wait for the bible-salesmen to come to you? Chat Live with a Missionary!

"You are speaking live with Spencer, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church."

Spencer: hello how may i help you

Angie: Hi I have some questions about Mormonism/LDS. I'm a college student, with a dual major in american history and middle east studies.

Spencer: ok Angie what questions

Angie: Both Islam and LDS claim to be the completions of the workings of the Jewish and Christian Bibles. How do you know yours is right?


Spencer: Well webelieve that when all the apostles were killed that the athority to lead christ church was lost

Angie: So what happened after it was lost?

Spencer: and this is seen because of all the reformations that occered druing the dark ages

Angie: Okay, so you believe that the other denominations of Christianity are lacking authority, right?

Spencer: because of this loss the true and full gosple needed to be restored to the earth

Angie: What makes you think the gospel in the standard Christian bible is incomplete? Note: I am not a Christian

Spencer: well they all have certain truths but the funness and the athority was taken from the earth when the last of the apostles died
(I'm sure he meant "fullness" but his typos were too cute to correct!)

Angie: How do you know this?

Spencer: in the bible there were prophets who lead the people right

Angie: right, the Bible tells of prophets

Spencer: well in Amos 3:7 we know that god wall alway revile his truth through prophets. were are the prophets today?

Angie: according to Muslims, Muhammed was the prophet of god (Allah means god in Arabic) and according to Mormons Joseph Smith was the prophet, and according to most protestant chrsitians, they're still waiting on a prophet who will come later. Jehovah's Witnesses believe their church leadership are the prophets.

Spencer: right and but most churches now call their leaders prophets but the will not claim that they talk to god still they belive that we have the bible and thats all we need. but i know the bible is great but you need someone who can talk to god and recive interpitations of it

Angie: well no, actually. MANY churches claim to talk directly to god, or through their leaders to god. In pentacostal churches they have "intercessors" who pray and many churches have some who speak in tongues, and others who interpret this as revelation from god. The catholics ask their priests and pope to talk to god and receive inspiration that way. Muslims believe their imams get divine inspiration from god

Spencer: they believe that they talk to god but do not but do notclaim to recive revolation from him

Angie: some do. Faith healers, the pope, and imams all claim to receive revaltion from god

Spencer: ok

Angie: how do mormons believe they receive revelation beyond the bible?

Spencer: you asked earlyer how I know were right yes

Angie: yes, how do you know that your beliefs are correct and the others are incorrect

Spencer: i have prayed to god for myself because i know that god answers our prayers because he loves us and he does not want us to wander in confusion all our lives. have you read the book of mormon

Angie: I would certainly hope no god would desire its followers to be confused. You say that you know god answers your prayers and that you know god loves you. can you explain this?

Spencer: well i know we can get answers and we don't have to take someone elses word for it we can ask. god will let us know fi something is true or not

Angie: I don't know what you mean. Are you saying a revealed truth directly to you, not through a book or through what others tell you?

Spencer: you said your not christian well cani ask what do you belive in

Angie: Sure, but first, can you answer my question? How do you know that what you believe is right, when so many people of different faiths so they know that they are right, and that their god answers their prayers? I don't see how one can choose when they all say the same things

Spencer: one second
(long pause while Spencer gets help)
you can ask for yourself

Angie: Please explain - I don't know what you mean by "ask for myself"

Spencer: get on your knees in a quiet place and ask god if there are prophet today or ask if the bible is true or any questions like that

Angie: mmmm, well how will I know that it is god answering me, and not just the thoughts in my own head or demons trying to deceive me?

Spencer: i know that if you ask in faith you will recive an answr not a voice or an angel but a feeling in your heart a burning or a feeling of peace

Angie: So I'll know it's god if I feel peaceful burning?
I'm just confused, because protestants say the same thing, and so do muslims. and there's a really nice hindu woman on my bus and she says her gods answer her prayers and that she can feel them when she talks to them

Spencer: it is difficult to describe i'll do my best

Angie: thank you.

Spencer: when i was young i didn't know if this church was true my parents said tehy knew but i had just always followed along

Angie: sure, most people end up with the same religion as their parents

Spencer: but when i was 15 a lot of things had been happening in my life and one of my friend asked me why i still went to church how do you know it's true and i didn't have an answer for him or myself

Angie: Right, I think a lot of teenagers of various faiths experience that - wanting to know that what they believe is true

Spencer: so when i got home that day i went into my room and read from the scriptures in the book of mormon there is this chapter in moroni that says if you pray in faith about these thigns the truth of them will be show unto you. it diricult beliveing enuything as a teenager
(at this point I began to wonder how old this missionary was)

Angie: So you wanted to know if Mormonism was right, so you read the Book Mormon, and it said in the chapter Moroni that if you had faith in Mormonism and prayed then you would know Mormonism was true?

Spencer: if i had faith that god would answer me theni would recive an answer
whether it was true or not

Angie: That doesn't make sense to me. I would have to believe that whatever I thought was from god, without knowing for sure it WAS from god, because I had already chosen to believe it before I prayed about it!

Spencer: my church friend all talked about this great burning feeling they got when they prayed for truth

Angie: Is there any way to know that the Mormon religion is true outside of the book of Mormon, like from the world around us, or something that mormons know that other people don't?

Spencer: welll i didn't know it was true all i knew was people said it was true

Angie: right, you didn't want to take someone's word for it. you wanted to know for yourself, I can respect that

Spencer: i didn't want to belive it i wanted to know if it was true. i was also scared because if it was true then i had to live it

Angie: so you don't just believe, no you know that it's true?

Spencer: yeah and it doesn't matter if my parent come and tell me that they don't belive anymore because i know that i'm right

Angie: wow, you sound really certain. can you tell me how you know you're right? I mean, if it's true I'd certainly rather know that. I really care about what is true and want to know as many true things, and believe as few false things, as possible.

Spencer: when i prayed it was different from what many people described. i asked if god loved me because i wanted to experiment with an easy answer. when i did this i waited for an answer and felt myself start to feel just completely safe comfortable that nothing mattered because was loved an i could feel it at that moment

Angie: feeling loved is very nice, yes

Spencer: when i knew that god would answer me i asked if prophet excisted on the earth and if joseph smith was one

Angie: you knew god could answer you because you felt loved when you asked if god loved you, is that right?

(5 minutes later)

Angie: Are you still there Spencer?

---------------------------------------

So what have I learned from this experiment? Well, that if I refrain from "you moron!" type comments I tend to make in comments to YouTube videos and to trolls here *ahem* I get a lot farther. My goal was to get him to start asking questions, by posing as dumb blonde agnostic (not to insult agnostics, you know what I mean). I learned that you can keep the other person on defense by asking all the questions. Notice how when Spencer asked me what I believed, I quickly deflected back to you, Sure but first answer my question. He was trying to change the subject to one that is easier - attacking the beliefs of someone else are much simpler than defending your own beliefs. I learned that bad internet connections can hinder the process (if he didn't just run away, lol). And I learned that you don't always have the opportunity to go back later. I wish I'd asked him while he was still on why he was afraid of god being true, and having to follow the teachings of his church. Finally, I learned that Mormon missionaries aren't required to be good at spelling to represent the church on this website.

Try it for yourselves if you want to get some good debate practice in without an audience: http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/ask-a-question/chat-live

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 2

"You are speaking live with Tyson, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church."

(Chat 1 with Spencer)

Tyson: hello Angie how are you today?

Me: I'm doing well Tyson. How are you?

Tyson: Oh im doin just fine. Do you have any questions for me?

Me: Yes. I want to know how you know that Mormons are right and Muslims are not.

Tyson: Well do you believe in Jesus Christ?
Are you a Muslim?

Me: Well a lot of other people do. I think it's pretty likely that a man named Jesus lived in Israel and had followers. No, I'm not a Muslim. I'm just trying to understand Mormonism better.

Tyson: ok well thats exactly what we believe in. We believe that Jesus Christ came to earth to redeem mankind

Me: redeem them from what?

Tyson: we believe him to be the son of God and only through Jesus Christ can we return to our father in heaven again
Redeem them from their sins.

Me; I see. You believe that Jesus is god's son and that we need him to go to heaven. Where is heaven?
And what do you mean by sin?

Tyson: You see, Jesus Christ Suffered for all of our sins and through him we don't have to live with the guilt of having them anymore

Me: Okay well that's all right. I don't have any guilt about sins. So I guess I'm okay

Tyson: God has given us commandments and when we disobey these commandments, we are distanced from him

Me: the commandments in the bible? or the koran? or int he code of hammurabi? (I know this isn't a holy text, just made me giggle to include it, as he probably has no idea what it is)
How do we know these commands come from god?

Tyson: the commandments are found in the bible and we know they are of god because they were revealed or told to prophets on the earth that we can read of in the bible and learn of their teachings

Me: so which commandments in the bible? ALL of them?
and aren't prophets just men? How do you know they are telling you the word of god, and not just what they think?

Tyson: A commandment is from God and when we disobey any of His commandments we need to be forgiven

Angie: but how do you know it's from god? I don't feel like I need to be forgiven just because I eat shellfish and the bible says that's a command from god.

Tyson: yes the commandments are found in the bible and we know these men are prophets because they were called of God and had the authority to preach the words of god
We can know for ourselves if these words are truough through praying to our heavenly father and asking him

Me: So if someone says he's a prophet, you believe everything he says? I'm just trying to understand

Tyson: no i ask my Father in heaven if the words these people say are true and i can reieve a witness through the holy ghost of what is the truth

Me: god speaks to you when you pray to him? how does he do that?
and if you have to check with god to verify the prophet's words, what is the point of having prophets at all?

Tyson: yes he does through the holy ghost. i want to share with you a scripture that talks about prayer and how we can receive an answer
(Here he gives a link that opens to THIS verse from Moroni) (Link lost - apologies)

Me: there are a lot of holy books and prophets though. how do i know this one is the true word of god, and not the qu'ran written by the prophet Muhammad?

Tyson: did you read that scripture i sent you a link for?

Me: it basically seems to say that if i ask and i believe that god will tell me if it's true, than the holy ghost (?) will explain it to me?
It seems like you have to believe it's true before you ask if it's true. that doesn't make sense to me.

Tyson: what you need to do is believe that God will answer your questions and then you ask him and he'll answer your question through the holy ghost

Me: okay, so the first step is to believe in god, then to believe that he'll answer my questions, and then to ask him and the ghost will answer for him?
Well how do you know that you are worshiping the right god? I don't want to make the wrong choice, because in ever religion god gets upset when you worship a false god

Tyson: the holy ghost answers your questions through a feeling or prompting in your heart

Me: what kind of feeling?

Tyson: I understand that you want to make the right choice and i know that if you ask God with a sincere heart, with real intent you will receive and answer. its hard to explain but the feeling will be a warm feeling deep within your heart that somehow you know, without a doubt, that it is the truth
will you do as this scripture says and pray to God and ask him if this is the correct church

Me: But how will i know which god to pray to? i know that you have faith and i want to know how i can be sure before i make any kind of commitment
okay, but which scripture do I use? The book of mormon? the bible? the koran? I want to know BEFORE I pray to any god that I'm picking the right one, and they all have holy books that say you're only supposed to pray to them

Tyson: well there is only one God and he is our father in heaven

Me: but how do you know he's the one god and not a false god?

Tyson: well you can pray to God and ask him which book is the correct book
because i have received an answer in my life
i know that he lives and he loves every one of us and will answer our prayers

(At this point my ride called to say he was on his way, so unfortunately I had to wrap up the conversation. Once I left though, I kept the applet open so I could get his final words)

Me: I have a ride coming soon, but I'd like to talk you to more. I want to follow the truth
(This is no lie. It's also why I'm an atheist)
That's great that you know that. How can I know it? My Muslim friends say Allah loves them and answers their prayers

Tyson: thats so good to hear and i want you to pray tonight and ask God if this is the truth and ask him if the bible is the word of God
will you do that?
well its an answer only you can recieve for yourself

Me: well no, because i don't know that he isn't a false god, so that's not a risk i'm willing to take without more information
What do you mean I can only receive it for myself? How will I know it's not just thoughts in my brain, or the devil?

Tyson: I know that this church is true and that you will know for yourself that he is a true god through that answer. God answers prayers and he will testify to you what you need to know
i challenge you to kneel down and ask him in faith that he will answer your prayer and i know you will recieve and answer

Me: Tyson my ride is here. I'd really like to talk to you more before I accept your challenge. Will you email me? my email address

Tyson: will you do this for me? just try it and see how you feel
when you come on again to chat just request Tyson and hopefully ill be here to chat

Me: I don't hink you can learn what is true and what is false just by feelings. Feelings are wrong all the time.

Tyson: its not a feeling
its an undeniable witness that this is the truth
it is a prompting from God and will exceed any other feelings you might feel
I have experienced this in my life and i want you to just try and youll know
iknow youll be bless greatly in your life and you are so close to knowing the truth
i want you to try this and know for yourself it is true


So what have I learned this time? Well, I bounced around too much. I should have kept him on any one point of questioning, instead of just throwing bluster at him ala christian evangelists. I really wish I had followed up on "What is the point of prophets if you have to check what they say with god?" Also, not all Mormons are completely dolts at spelling as the last one was.

To be continued... Mwhyahahaha! (I don't know why evil laughter seemed appropriate - it just did. Maybe it was an "undeniable feeling" that "isn't a feeling"?)

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 3

"You are speaking live with Andrew, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church."

(Chat 1 with Spencer)
(Chat 2 with Tyson)

Andrew: Hello Angie!

Me: Hi Andrew :)

Andrew: How may i help you today?
(Already I'm impressed with his use of the Shift key! So much better than the last two dear boys.)

Me: I wanted to ask about LDS and women. What is life like for a Mormon woman?

Andrew: I am not really sure how to answer that. I would say the have the same kind of life as any other woman, just that they are mormon.

(At this point I literally facepalmed myself - it stung a bit.)

Me: Well, okay, I'll be more specific. Are there a lot of single Mormon women in their 30s?

Andrew: you know, I am not sure. To my knowledge there arent, but that either because they havent found the person for them, or they are just waiting for the right time for them to get married.
(I take back that remark about his Shift usage. Or maybe Mormons just have really crappy keyboards?)

Me: Well, what kinds of jobs do women have in the Church?
Like, are they missionaries like you?

Andrew: yeah woman can be missionaries if they want, they have callings in church like sundaschool teachers or young woman teachers, and relief society teachers

Me: So they can teach kids and other women. What about men?

Andrew: that would be under the sunday school teacher also

Me: Oh, okay. I thought Sunday School meant children's church. Do Mormons use birth control?

Andrew: Sunday school is for everyone, its just a title we use for our church lessons. As for Birth Control that is up to the woman. I have heard of people using it, and i have never heard anything against it.

Me: Oh, I always thought they didn't, because you seem to have such big families. That's a relief.
Well, what about prophecy - are women ever prophets?

Andrew: unfortunetly not

Me: What, not ever?

Andrew: nope

Me: Why not?
(Looooong pause. Gotcha mother f$#$er!)

Andrew: its because the men are the ones that hold the priesthood and they are called to have that position, where as woman have more important rolls that man arent capable of doing.

Me: Well, I have two questions.
1) Why are only men in the priesthood?
2) What is more important than leading your community and talking directly to god?

Andrew: Because God has set for that Man are the leaders of his matters. that is in Genesis.
(link)

Me: So god just decided that men get to be leaders and women don't? What if you have a very smart, capable woman with a lot of leadership skills, and a man who isn't very bright or educated and is shy speaking in public? Which one would god choose to make a prophet?

Me: Wait, that verse doesn't say anything about church leadership! That just says Eve will be sad and have lots of babies and that she'll wanna get it on with Adam.
(Oh, I crack myself up sometimes. This is usually when I think they'll end the conversation.)

(Worryingly long pause. Maybe I went too far with the "get it on" comment?)

Me: Andrew?

Andrew: Yes, one moment please

(Now I'm just bored. I wonder what I should make for dinner?)

Andrew: the only answer i have for you is that we will never understand the ways of the lord and why he has said he wants things this way
(link)

Me: Yes, but that verse didn't actually SAY the Lord wants men to be the only ones in the priesthood. So who decided that?

(Yogurt is yummy! Let's see if I finish the carton before Andrew's back with the answer from his mission supervisor.)

(i finished the half the carton and watched one clip of Atheist Nexus on YouTube but now he's back in action!)

Andrew: The Lord

Me: How do you know the Lord decided that?

Andrew: Through out the ages the lord has limited his knowledge and commandments we dont know why
back in the old testament only those of the tribe of levi could have the priesthood, we dont know why, but he limmited it them

Me: I'm just asking what verses or support you have to say that the Lord says women can't be prophets. Please?

Andrew: Here is a talk done by a prophet of God on the idea of a prophetess
(link)

Me: I don't want to know what some guy says. I want to know what GOD says. I'm sure lots of guys would like to see women have to follow them. I only care about what GOD thinks about it.

Andrew: This is God speaking through his prophet
(Another literal facepalm. I gotta quit doing those...)

Me: Give me a moment to read it. Please don't go :)
Wait - he lists all these different places where women were prophetesses in the Bible and then says, "But there is no office, calling, or position of prophetess within the priesthood, nor any other area of jurisdiction, nor were there in olden times such priesthood offices or callings that could have given rise to such usage."
He's contradicting the Bible. God never said women couldn't be prophets - he said the opposite!

Andrew: What i am saying is that modern day prophets are called because of there worthiness of using the priesthood they have. This statement is saying that woman can be, but they are not called to be leaders of Gods church, they may be able to gain revelations.

Me: But why aren't women called to be leaders of God's church? I'm trying to understand

Andrew:...and visions through the holy spirity but they dont hold the priesthood so they are not called as leaders of this church
Please show me in the Bible where it says women were given the priesthood.

Me: Show me where it says they weren't! Deborah was a leader, a judge, and a prophetess. In ancient times where the men pretty much owned the women, not like modern times when women are allowed to divorce, own property, vote, etc. I would think women in the church would be freer now than Deborah was back then.

Andrew: Again Angie, if you can't show me where it says they were given the priesthood, then your argument is pretty flat. My purpose is not to argue here, and I can show you plenty of scriptures where the priesthood was passed to the male leaders of the church.
But I really don't think we're getting anywhere. To best understand this, I invite you to talk with some female members of the LDS church. (AKA "Shut up bitch!")

Me: Well, I just don't see why any woman would join the Mormon church, if they have to be second-class citizens.
I'd love to - are there any female missionaries on the chat server?

Andrew: I appreciate your time and patience with me and hope you find the answers locally that you are searching for
If you feel that they are second-class citizen, then i am truly sorry you have been misniformed
Let me check. One moment please

Me: If women can't have the most important position - prophet - then yes, that is second class. That is not first class.

Andrew: Sorry, there's none available right now

Me: When should I try back?

Andrew: Please try back tomorrow about the same time.
Hopefully there will be a female missionary available

Me: Okay, I guess you don't have the answers I'm looking for about women in your church.

Andrew: I hope you have a great day Angie

Me: You too, Andrew. (Lie) And I hope you start to ask yourself why women don't get to be prophets, and don't settle for things like "god is mysterious".

Andrew: I know the answer, i hope you can come to understand it also
Goodbye angie

And then he clicked off before I could respond - If you know the answer, flipping tell me already! So, what have I learned? Well, before I started I learned from previous posts that ya'll weren't getting the full impact of the pauses. I learned that I'm okay with getting disconnected by the young lad, as I was pretty much two clicks away from saying "You're god is a prick" which is fun, but probably less persuasive of an argument. As long as I can get some really good seeds of doubt planted, it's worth biting my typing tongue (aka "fingers"). Hopefully if nothing else young Andrew realizes that he doesn't know squat about half his fellow Mormons. Maybe he'll start to look at his beliefs a little more closely. Reading the Bible made me an atheist - Might reading the Book of Mormon do the same for him?

I've learned that it always helps to know their holy texts better than they do. Now, I don't know anything really from the BoM, but I know how it was composed by a convicted con man with magic plates and magic stones who put his face in a hat and largely ripped off from Isaiah, so I'm gonna rest on my Bible-Bowl-gold-medal-from-2nd-grade laurels.

Finally, I've learned that seemingly nice young men are totally cool with women getting screwed by the big man in the sky. Man, God's a misogynist prick no matter WHAT kind of underwear you're in!

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