Irrational Responder (VID)

I, Angie Jackson, do solemnly swear to do my best to get an actually written post on this blog within the next 48 hours. Till then, enjoy my first video counter-apologetic :D



Isn't the internet amazing?

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Swearing: The Potty Mouth Sin

Today we'll be talking about swear words and blasphemy, goddammit. I was trying to find a good picture of God cursing women for the last post, but instead stumbled onto TurnBacktoGod.com and their article, "Swearing and Cursing are signs of evil in one's heart." Hot damn! Let's get started.

CURSE WORDS REVEAL THE CONDITION OF A MAN’S HEART

In what way? Is a man who drops a lot of f-bombs hornier than another? Does the "bs" shouter actually smell of cow patties, or does her heart actually pump "bs"? Do curse words reveal the condition of a woman's heart or only a man's?

Jesus taught in the Bible that when a man curses or uses profanity it is a sign of evil that was in that man’s heart. It is popular today for both men and women to curse. They never think of it as an evil condition in their heart, but rather a small thing that everyone does. These small words of cursing the Bible says, will defile the whole man if they are not repented of and stopped. Cussing and using the name of the Lord in vain causes one to become defiled.

It is popular today for both men and women to believe things without evidence, like that the words of Jesus or the Bible have any bearing on our lives. Oh, I'm sorry, were you attempting to paint this as a godless secular society? Pfft. (I love that noise.) The idea that a word could defile you is silly, and very much like the magical thinking I grew up under. It may have been daily that my Giggy reminded me, "Life and death are in the power of the tongue." Of course, now I know that my grandmother is and was batshit crazy, so her opinions matter a lot less than they used to. Defiled is just another way of saying dirty. At its core, Christianity is legalistic and hurtful to its members. I can't understand how people get so deluded that we think the thing that is torturing us is making us happy.

Popular movies and T.V. are responsible for causing society to accept foul language as the “norm.” They portray cursing as a way to vent anger and tell people off. The very attitudes behind cursing show that it is not right as cussing is used to demean and put down people. These words can be mild expletives to horrible blasphemies. Since the devil is the one who inspires these evil utterances he causes people to use our Lord’s name in the most ungodly ways.

Even if you could tie correlation between increased profanity on TV and movies with increased profanity in the general public, there is no evidence (data, reason to believe it's true) that it's a causal relationship. Maybe society accepted foul language first, and then let the FCC relax the standards. Well, swearing does help you vent, and reduces physical pain. And "The devil made me do it!" always makes me wonder why God lets the Devil have so much sway.

In the modern definition of cursing, usually people use the name of Jesus or God in vain and swear with curses such as “go to hell” or “damn you.” These words clearly show it is an evil coming from the devil.

If you're going to refer to a definition, it's best to actually define the thing (or at least link to it). And while statements like "go to hell" are certainly rude (ahem, *cough, CHRISTIANS, cough*) it's not like they actually have any power. Christian readers, please jump in and correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think you actually believe that you, as a born-again/washed in the blood/confirmed Christian will "go to hell" simply because I said so. So the words aren't anything more than words, even if they are rude. They have no magic to actually "curse" anyone. Also? The author obviously does not understand what "clearly show" means.

Have you ever wondered why people do not not use the names of gods of other religions when they curse? The names that the devil hates and uses people to voice hateful curses are “God,” “Christ,” “Jesus Christ” and “Jesus.” Terms about hell and heaven are also used in derogatory ways. The very misuse of these words should prove the existence of God and the reality of a heaven and hell.

Um, Christocentric much? People DO use other gods' names in curses, just not that much in English in America, where you know, the Christian one is the one we're constantly being told is damning some percentage of us to "go to hell" forever. (Why is it NOT rude or evil when your god tells us to "go to hell" or "damn you"?)

"The very misuse of these words should prove the existence of God and the reality of heaven and hell."

Okay, I'm not sure exactly how many of these terms the author doesn't comprehend, but it's at least a couple of these: prove (establish the truth or validity of by presentation of argument or evidence), existence (the state of existing; being), and reality (the quality or state of being actual or true).

Even Christians have been tricked into using bad expressions when they are upset. They are take-offs of the Lord’s names such as: “Geeze” or “Jes” (short for Jesus), “Good Gosh,” “Gosh Darn,” “Lordy.” This is known as “shoot cussin”. There are other terms used, which we will not repeat, as they are vulgar profanities. However, these illustrations make the point.

Ah, notice that Christians are "tricked" - the Devil made them do it. And you're gonna have to deal with the old ladies in the south if you think "Lordy" is a curseword - they might tear a fair size knot in your butt for trying. (Can I record it for YouTube when you do?) And in all my years of crazy legalistic fringe Christianity, I never herd the phrase "shoot cussin". If "Lordy" makes the point of vulgar profanities, you are missing the point of swearing. It adds invective when other words won't suffice or when you're so pissed your brain gets locked and all you can eject are curses and insults about penis size. (Just me?)

Many good movies have been ruined for Christians because the script writers thought adding profane language (which they refer to as adult language) somehow made the movie more relalistic. Adults nor children should use bad language if we are to be like our Lord. We do not have to use curse words to emphasize our intentions.

Good movies aren't made for Christians - they're made for the box office. You might be whiny persecuted majority, but you have not won in Hollywood (because you're jerks.) And you're ignoring the fact that scriptwriters and a lot of other Americans don't want to be like your Lord (because he's a slave-condoning, misogynistic, homophobic, genocidal, mass-murdering fuckhead.)

BIBLE QUOTES ON SWEARING AND CURSING

Colosians 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.”

Okay, since Yahweh was angry, wrathful, malicious, blasphemous, and filthy - why does he get such a free pass? (Go back to the Old Testament for some of the "horrible blasphemies" he used about other gods.) And any former-believing atheist will tell you, the Christians don't have special knowledge - they have special ignorance and confirmation bias.

Matthew 5:37: “But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.”

Gee, I can see how practical monosyllabic conversations would be. But is this verse really saying that speaking more than that is evil? What about Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, or every preachers' oratory?

If swearing and cursing have been a problem in your life ask the Lord to forgive you and deliver you so that your words may be good and loving words full of grace and truth. He will help you overcome this problem through His power.

Look, unless you have Tourette's, or some other genuine problem controlling your speech, you don't need a god to quit dropping F-bombs. I used to use the word "fucktard" a lot, but it started to bug me how offensive it was, so I decided not to say it anymore. ("Batshit crazy" is often way more accurate anyway, and just as fun.)

Matthew 12:34-36: “O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.”

Oooh! He's making a list, checking it twice, gonna find out who's naughty or nice - what, wait? Oh I'm sorry this was Jesus, not Santa. My mistake. Jesus is the one who sees you when you're sleeping; he knows when you're awake; he knows when you've been bad or good so live in terror for goodness' sake. Oh! (Seriously, I need to get a webcam so I can make LOL Jesus music videos.)

Psalm 19:14: “Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.”

I don't give a flying squirrel what your Lord finds acceptable - because he's a jerk. (Look, it's only an ad hominem if I insult him *instead* of making a good case; it's totally legit to make my case and then call him names after. Maybe not mature, but legit.)

Matthew 15:11: “Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.”

WRONG! The words we listen to, accept as true, and believe can absolutely "defile" us. Look at the 9/11 hijackers. They didn't come up with that plan each individually - words went into them. Words about Allah, and infidels, and paradise, just like Christian words about Jesus, and sinners, and heaven. What we take in can improve us or harm us. People who read my grandmother's book took in evil concepts and evil ideas. Also, this verse seems like it contradicts the next one. Does the defilement start in the heart and lead to the words, or does the uttering of the words cause the defilement? The Bible is so badly written! It's kind of obviously not divine, don't you think?

Matthew 15:17-20: “Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.”

My heart pumps blood, not defilement. Frankly, no one's thoughts (evil or otherwise) proceed from their heart. That's not where thinking happens (hint, hint "I feel god" types - this means you!) And I'm sorry but eating without washing your hands is a very, very bad idea. I know I was taught that "cleanliness is next to godliness" yet the Bible clearly states that "to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man." There's so much bad advice in the Bible that I hadn't caught this one before. (It's always in light of these verses that I remember how credible my grandmother seemed, and how honored she was by so many male pastors. Our beliefs about not locking doors don't seem that extreme next to that insanity.)

The Bible versus the CDC - whoever will I believe? Hmmm, I think I'll go with the experts.



From "Borders of Infinity" by Lois McMaster Bujold:

And where the devil does not exist, Miles thought to himself, it may become expedient to invent him.

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Thin Without

So, you remember when the Christian "study mentor" referred me to a bible-based online fat camp, right? Apparently, they've got communication problems internally, because (without any reference to my first mentor Pat) I've got a new one.

Len used the actual survey answers and responded to each. Most of the responses were "that's right" in nature, and so I've left them out here for brevity. Below is my response to her response to my response to a question. (Question is in black, my original response is in purple, her comments are in blue, my most recent response is in black.) And yes, I did have all those Bible verses linked in the email I sent her :)

Hi Len,

I'll just respond to a few specific comments of yours.

*5: Define a person with true beauty. What does Peter 3:3-5 say beauty is?*
I would define a person with true beauty as someone who is compassionate and generous. That passage defines beauty as "gentle and quiet" and "submissive". That sounds more pathetic and victimized than "beautiful" to me.

Good definition - but what's wrong with gentle and quiet spirit? I know that in this day of equality we scoff at the word "submission". That is because we have swung to far the other way. It does not mean that women are to be slaves. If husbands and bosses were, first of all, submissive to God, then women would not find it so difficult to fall in line with directives of a man. For the sake of order, someone has to be in charge of things. Without it our society crumbles as we see it happening now. As far as importance in God's eyes is concerned the woman is on equal level with the man.

The problem with promoting a gentle and quiet spirit and submission is that it lends itself to abuse - over and over again, across cultures and religions. When groups adopt a patriarchal model, women and children ARE abused. As a children's rights activist and anti-cult activist, I have to tell you that your promotion of essentially "being a quiet non-complaining helpmeet" is *extremely* dangerous! I am trying to get a neighbor to leave her husband right NOW because he is attempting to kill her, but she's so damn submissive and gentle, and such a quiet-spirit and so obedient to her husband that she will probably die before she leaves him. It is *heartbreaking* and it is the kind of work I do everyday helping people make their lives BETTER.

I suggest you read the book "Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement" by Katherine Joyce a very well-researched and well-written book examining the Quiverfull (complimentarian or "separate but equal" gender roles) lifestyle and the damage that it inflicts on the women, children, and even men involved. Here is an article she wrote on the subject for Salon.com

As a single mother who left an abusive alcoholic adulterer, I will say that "for the sake of order" (and probably my life) it was absolutely important that someone was in charge - ME. Equality is absolutely necessary, or else abuse WILL occur! Your god hates a vagina - read your Bible. Menstruating is a sin requiring days of isolation, followed by cleansing and a blood sacrifice. Supposedly God cursed *all women forever* with the pain of childbirth (which is caused by totally natural things, by the way - We ARE products of evolution, after all) because one woman - who didn't know right from wrong - displeased Him one time. He turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt for looking back, but when Lot offered up his virgin daughters to be gang-raped, or when he later had incestuous sex and impregnated BOTH of them, that's absolutely fine. Wanna know how much God thinks a man should be paid if his daughter is raped? 50 Shekels! (Of course the victim gets nothing except she has to marry the rapist - or be stoned to death, depending on where she was when he raped her.) It's all in the Bible. I don't believe the book is true, but if it was - clearly, God HATES women.

And yet you DO think the book is true, and you're trying to tell me that men and women are equal in God's eyes? What could you *possibly* be basing that on? Because it's certainly not scripture.

*6: When are times that you feel like you have no control in your life?*
When my unemployment check gets deposited late and my landlady knocks on my door.

That's scary unsettling time for sure and there could be many others - every time there is a situation that you cannot fix on your own.

Who said I couldn't fix it on my own? In fact, I did - I've ironed out the problem with my unemployment check, and gotten my landlady to agree to a payment arrangement until the balance is caught up. Instead of sitting on my hands, or praying to God, I recognized that there is no Sky Daddy to come kiss it and make it all better, and so I make it better myself. Humanism is incredibly empowering, and much more productive for a happy life than Christianity. I speak from personal experience, but also the experience of the thousands of members of Ex-Christian.net and other deconversion sites.

*8: How do you think God views you? How do you think God feels when you’re harming your body?*
God is imaginary. No real medical doctor should ever ask me what unicorns or gods think of my issues with food.

I am sorry you feel that way but you have a free will to choose to believe or not believe that God exists, but that is a very important topic of its own. We could talk more about it if you wanted to.

God has the free will capability to reveal himself to be, and yet he hasn't. Is this because He wants me to go to hell because I lacked evidence, or does this mean He is imaginary? (Hint: It's the second one.) I know you're probably thinking, "But that would interfere with your free will!" but it wouldn't. Case in point? Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels had *absolute knowledge and proof* of God's existence, yet they chose not to worship him. Clearly, it would be possible for God to reveal himself clearly, and not in some poorly written in-dire-need-of-editing hodgepodge of genealogy, myth, half-truths, parables, and proverbs, entirely reliant on human copying, printing, and translation efforts. And yet he hasn't and doesn't. To me the most logical explanation for why an all-powerful, all-loving god who desired to spend eternity with mankind would not save billions of nonbelievers through this simple gift of knowledge is that he doesn't exist. How do you rationalize your belief in a god there is no evidence for?

And people don't choose to believe or disbelieve the gospel. You can't choose to believe the earth is flat or that lemons aren't tart. You know better. Knowledge impacts belief. I know too much about the brain, sociology, group dynamics, delusion, propaganda, history, and other world religions to ever believe Christianity is true again.

*10: I have the following questions/comments about this study. Also, please pray for me in these areas:*
Are you aware of the term "push polling" and do you see how this "study" does more to suggest that the real cure for an eating disorder is god (who I believed in during the 12 years I was puking my guts up) than it does to actually learn what women think?

To tell the truth, no I did not know the term "push polling" but I researched it and now I know. I don't think that it applies totally to what these lessons are intended for. We did not conduct large polls in order to manipulate people. I will admit we offer the lessons to point people to a resource - God - that many people have not considered for their problems. That applies to problems of many kinds not just this one. You have the option to disregard the evidence, but countless stories are available fom people whose lives and hope for the future has changed for the better because of their faith in God. But it's your choice - we only point you in that direction.

I find it very deceptive that your magazine claimed to be conducting a "study" (really more of a survey) to find out what women with eating disorders thought, when your actual motive was to proselytize. I don't know why Christians think that being deceptive or "lying for Jesus" is somehow morally okay, when it's one of those Ten Commandments your "brothers and sisters in Christ" keep trying to plant on *my* courthouse lawn.

You seem to think I had never tried the God solution - as I stated above I was a Christian (just like you!) while I was unhappy, suicidal, miserable, anorexic and severely underweight. As an atheist, I'm happier, I'm healthier, I take better care of myself and I'm a better mother. Faith in god was the *problem* and knowledge about the real world around us - not the fantasy tales of heaven with streets paved of gold, but this life! right here in front of us, passing us by - THAT has been the solution. I don't want to go to heaven - I want to stay right here as long as I can, and soＩ*embrace* this short, temporal, insignificant life and take it for all it's worth. THAT is the way to deal with problems - by actually dealing with them, not praying and waiting for Jesus to come fix you.

What evidence am I disregarding? To my knowledge, there IS no evidence for God. If you think you have some, I'd be thrilled to hear it (and frankly, so would the Nobel committee).

And as for the personal testimonies - there are Scientologists who will tell you how much Dianetics and the Tech have improved their lives; there are Mormons who will tell you that Joseph Smith was the latter-day prophet of God and they *know* it because they prayed and asked God and he told them that the Book of Mormon was true; David Koresh still has some followers who admire him even now, far from him. I study cults. Personal testimonies of a spiritual nature don't tell us ANYTHING about whether or not what they believe is helping them is actually real or true (or even helpful).

I'm looking forward to your replies.
--------------------

What do you think ATAT readers (Aters? ataters? Anteaters?*) is Len going to write me back?

Place your non-monetary bets below and I promise to keep you updated if anyone from this study/survey/we-just-wanna-point-you-to-god-because-we-think-you've-somehow-never-heard-the-gospel group contacts me again.

And now here is THE best "Jesus LOL" video.

I may have done nasal-cranial damage from laughing so hard at that. *sigh* Freaking priceless. You sing it, Jesus! (Seriously that's going up there with WWJD as one of my favorite Jesus music videos.)

Okay, here's the LMB quote of the day. (By the way, I will keep posting these until y'all let me know you've gone out and requested her books from your library or book venord, mm'kay?) From Mirror Dance, p. 722

She gave him a half-salute and turned away. He puzzled over the look in her eyes, as she descended out of sight down the lift-tube. It wasn't love. It wasn't fear.

Oh. So that's what respect looks like. Oh.

I could get used to that.

* Whatever shall I call you?? Suggest names and I'll let y'all vote on them! There's only so many times I can type "y'all" in a post and "you guys" just seems weird since I have so many female readers. But "readers" sounds totally boring and non-branded so come up with an ATAT reader nickname, please!

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 9

It's that special time again - time for Angie to pull out the dumb blonde agnostic routine and chat with a Mormon.

I went with the gender neutral name Terry today, so we'll see how that results. Once again, I have a female missionary. (The first five were all guys. I didn't even know women worked at that BYU computer bank.)

You are speaking live with Bonnie, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the church.

Bonnie: Hi! How can I help you?

Me: Hi Bonnie, I'm interested in learning more about LDS.

Bonnie: That's great. What is your religious background?
(Let's quickly steer the conversation elsewhere. I don't want this to be a referendum on my atheism, but an exploration of why SHE believes something without good reason. Watch how I move.)

Me: Christian.

How about you - were your parents Mormon or did you convert?

Bonnie: My parents were both Mormon, but then they were divorced and my mom stopped practicing. It was my choice. (Don't ya know mom would be fascinating to talk to, but the Church of LDS doesn't exactly keep apostates as missionaries.)

Me: Oh. Sorry about your parents' divorce (genuine). So did you attend when you were little, and then started going back later on in life?

Bonnie: Yes. I always kind of went but didn't start going faithfully until I was about 18.

Me: So what made you go back to it, or commit to it more?

Bonnie: I read the Book of Mormon and that changed my life. I gained a testimony/relationship with my Savior. I realized what is most important in life.

Me: And what is more important in life to you?

Bonnie: God, Jesus Christ, family. That is where true happiness is found. Serving and loving others. (There are parts of these phrases I whole-heartedly agree with. I get a lot of satisfaction out of working on this blog, and part of that comes from knowing it helps others. But part of it is totally self-centered and vain - all autobiography blogs surely must be a little conceited. Right?)

Me: So you like being a Mormon because it gives you happiness

Bonnie: Yes and because this is where the truth is found.

Me: Did you look at other religions, to see which one you liked best, or did you always just know that LDS was right for you?

Truth is something I'm very interested in.

Bonnie: I knew it was true after I read the Book of Mormon.

Me: Was that before or after you were 18 and recommitted yourself to your faith?

Bonnie: After. (I was not expecting this answer. Did she never read BoM as a child in LDS church? That seems doubtful. And also, if it was after she recommitted herself - what made her do that in the first place?)

I know you can know truth as well as you study and pray about these things.

Me: So you didn't look at any other faiths, just Mormonism?

Bonnie: I have been exposed to other faiths since my step-dad is not a member of this Church. I have been to a few different churches with His family.

Me: But you haven't looked into the tenants or truth of Islam or Hindu or Sikh, right?

Bonnie: I have not

They were mostly protestant and christian denominations.
(Ah, so still God, Jesus, etc. that she listed as being the benefits of Mormonism.)

Me: So you don't really know how other religions with other gods compare. Okay. (Summary statements are wonderful.)

So, if you didn't pick LDS because it was better than other religions, why did you?

Bonnie: Because I know it is true.

Me: What are you basing that on? I mean, you didn't rule out the other ones because they were false or something was wrong with their scripture, right? You just "know" that the one you grew up with is true. How?

Bonnie: I prayed about it and asked God. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. If there is only one God there has to be only one true church. All churches have truth, but one must contain the fulness of the truth.

(This has the taste of rote recitation. I can almost hear the droning voices saying that en masse in a high-cielinged room each week. I don't know if Mormons actually have some kind of "statement of the faith" that they reaffirm each week like Catholics and Episcopalians, but I'm guessing if they did, it would sound like THIS. So let's deconstruct it - premise by premise. Seeds of doubt, baby. That's my goal in these. (And boosting readership. I think more people must do searches for "mormon lol" than anything, because I always get a ton of new readers for the Chatting with Mormon series. Hi new readers!))

Me: Let me make sure I understand what you're saying.

You grew up Mormon, but not very religious about it. At 18 you read the Book of Mormon and prayed about it. You didn't look at or try out any other religions in the meantime.

Bonnie: I guess not

Me: When you prayed it felt like God confirmed that everything you'd been taught was true, right?

Why do you suppose that there is exactly one god? What led you to conclude that there's one instead of zero or three or a hundred?

Bonnie: Because it makes sense that there would be only one God. That's the scriptures and prophets teach. (Definition: "makes sense" - "doesn't cause cognitive dissonance with the beliefs I already accept as true.)

Me: In LDS religion, sure.

But in a lot of religions there are more than one god. So why does "one god" make more sense?

Bonnie: It would be too confusing if there were multiple Gods. (Somehow the Hindus and Catholics manage it.)

Me: So you think one god is less confusing. Why do you think that would mean there was only one true church? How do you know that all paths, or many paths, don't lead to god?

Bonnie: Because God has set up one plan. That is how we return to God.

Me: What made you conclude that? What was your thought process like?

Bonnie: I studied and prayed and asked God. (That is not a thought process, sweetheart.)

Me: Do you believe that god is angry with people who follow the wrong religion?

Bonnie:I think he knows the thoughts and intents of their hearts. I don't think He is made but He knows they can be happier with the fulness of truth.

Me: Well, I know the Bible says that God is jealous. So does the Koran. What does the Book of Mormon say?

Bonnie: Same thing.

Me: Okay. So if there is one god, and only one path to him, how do you know that Mormonism is right, instead of Catholicism or Islam or Judaism or something?

Bonnie: I have studied, prayed, asked God, and received an answer.

Me: But you only studied the one religion.

Right?

Bonnie: True. (You're damn right it's true. It's also the *point*.)

Me: Okay. Do you believe that people can be deceived by false teachers or false gods?

Bonnie: I do. That is why it is so important to pray and ask God. He knows everything.
(The claw is our master! The claw chooses who will go and who will stay. The claw!)
C


Me: That's a comforting thought :)
(When you can't say something nice, say something condescending that *sounds* nice!)

Do you believe that demons or the devil can talk to us and tempt us?

Bonnie: I think we can be tempted. Everything that is good comes from God, that which is not good does not come from God.

Me: So we only make good choices if we have god in our lives?

Because Bill Gates is an atheist, and he's really successful, and he's also a good person. He gives a huge portion of his income to charity and does a lot of good. He doesn't have god. So do you mean something different, and I'm just missing the point? :)

(I love Bill Gates as an atheist example. I use Brad and Angelina a lot too, but I'm guessing the liberal "in sin" Hollywood aspects might lose her.)

Bonnie: You were asking if the devil can tempt us, my answer is yes. When we follow those bad choices we are not following God.
(Notice the dodge around my question - what about people who do good without god?)

Me; Okay. So when you prayed about the Book of Mormon, how are you certain that it was God who told you that it was the truth, and not the devil, or just your own thoughts?

Bonnie: Because it made sense and because I felt the Spirit.
("Made sense" can be thought of as "did not cause cognitive dissonance with already held beliefs".)

Me: What did the Spirit feel like?

Bonnie: In Galations 5:22-23 states; But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance
(So not what I was asking. *facepalm*)

Me: So you felt all those things when you were praying and asking if LDS was the right one true church?

Bonnie: Yes

Me: Well, I've felt all those things before too, but I've never asked God if the Book of Mormon was true.

How do you *know* that God/Holy Spirit actually led you to LDS instead of just your own thoughts and feelings?

Most people, all over the world, end up following as adults the religion they were raised in as little kids. So I wonder if that's the real reason people end up in a religion, and not because one of them is true. (Especially not one of the *tiniest* ones.)

Bonnie: Because it made sense and I know that it was the Spirit.
(I know because I know because I don't know what "know" means.)

I actually served on a mission and had the wonderful opportunity to teach people about the church who grew up in other faiths

Me: That sounds like a lot of fun :)
(Well, it's not like she's allowed to go have sex or anything. And besides, religious debate IS fun.)

Bonnie: After they searched it out, prayed, and asked God, they received the same answer.

Me: Well, yes, every religion has some conversion and deconversion. You said your mom doesn't practice anymore, for example.

And your stepdad doesn't think it's true either.

What do you know that they don't?

Bonnie: Right.

He doesn't go to any church.

The reason people fall away, like my mom, is guilt. They make a mistake and forget tht they can be forgiven.

(Scratch! Wow. This is why I hope my kid never gets religion. What an awful way for her to feel about her mom. Of course, I'm assuming that her mom's "mistake" was a sin against god, rather than an actual harm. That would change things. Still, a rather condescending and mean attitude to have towards one's mother at the wise old age of BYU attendance.)

Me: Hmmm. That might be a reason for some people. That isn't why I left Christianity, though.

(Yes, *now* I'm ready to talk about my religious background. I've done the prep work for the bombshell.)

Bonnie: They forget their relationship with God.

Me: Again, that isn't why I left. Have you ever been an apostate?
Is that why you left the church?

Bonnie: I have never been one. (Then shut up about us!) I never really left. I just didn't practice it completely. (So going back to my original question? Yes, you have always been a Mormon.)

Me: Okay. Well, there are a lot of reasons people step away from their faith, but I don't think I've ever heard someone say they left because of guilt about their own actions.
Ever.

Bonnie: I know a lot of people that forgot they could be forgiven and so they left.
(Somehow I'm guessing that's not the interpretation they'd put on it themselves.)

Me: Well, would you like to hear a bit about my religious background?

Bonnie: Sure.

Me: I was raised Christian. I read my Bible, taught Sunday School, and went to church at least once a week. I paid my tithe.

As I got older, I made friends with people who weren't my religion. I was really sad to think they wouldn't be in heave with me after we died.

Bonnie: They will.

Me: Not in the tenants of the religion I grew up in

I used to read my Bible, and pray, and ask God to tell me what was true and what to do, and I tried to lead a good life and honor Him. (most of the time.)

Bonnie: We believe they will.

Me: Okay. I know Mormons and Christians have very different afterlife beliefs, but I think even Mormons have separate levels of heaven, so my friends who were following the "wrong religion" might not have ended up on the same level that I did, right?

(Bonnie: But before we get to that we are in a placed called Spirit World. (Ooh!) This is where we will wait till the Savior comes again. This is where every one of God's children will have the opportunity to accept His truth. It wouldn't be fair for them to be judged on something that they were never taught.

(Look, if I can go to your crappy heaven without believing your crappy religion, then the cost-benefit analysis of Pascal's Wager doesn't really work out well for Mormons.)

Me: I really love learning, so I started to read and learn more about a lot of things - science, and history, and religion. In college a lot of my friends were Muslim.

I felt like I just *knew* that their religions was wrong, and that they were good people but deceived.

Bonnie: It's true. (*snort* Confidence much?)

Me: But I started to ask myself what evidence I had for my beliefs that my Muslim friends didn't have. And you know what? There's not even any evidence that any god even exists! I was totally blown away

Bonnie: What kind of evidence are you looking for?

Me: So I started to look into it further, and I looked at the founding of various religions. I looked at the history of Islam, Christianity, and LDS

Evidence - something that shows WHY religion X is better than religion Y. Or why what religion X claims to be true actually *is* true.

I mean, from an outsider's perspective, you telling me that you read the scripture and prayed and felt like god told you LDS was right, sounds exactly the same as my Muslim friends who read the Koran and prayed and felt like god told them Islam was right.

How do you KNOW you're right?

Bonnie: I can understand how that might seem confusing. (Or batshit.)

Me: Good :)

Bonnie: I guess that's where study and meditation comes in.

Me: Yes, but like I said - other religions have that. People of other faiths list the exact same reasons for why they believe their scriptures are right that you did.

Jews study and meditate on the Torah. Muslims study and meditate on the Koran. Christians study and meditate on the Bible.

Are they all praying to god and just being deceived??

Bonnie: There is a great talk by one of our apostles about acquiring spiritual knowledge that came to mind. Would you take a minute to read it?

Me: Absolutely, Bonnie.

Bonnie: Thanks (link)

Me: You're welcome. I'll write back as soon as I'm done reading. :)

Bonnie: Perfect.

Me: Okay. I have a question about this quote from Joseph Smith. "The greatest achievement mankind can make in this world is to familiarize themselves with divine truth, so thoroughly, so perfectly, that the example or conduct of no creature living in the world can ever turn them away from the knowledge that they have obtained."

Bonnie: Okay. What's your question?

Me: If the most important thing you can do on this earth is learn divine truth (gag me with a harpsichord if *that's* true), aren't you severely limiting yourself by only looking at one religion? Joseph Smith was a man. What if he was deceived?

Bonnie: If there is only one true religion then you would not be limiting yourself.

Me: Yes, but you don't know for certain that it IS the right one. You could be missing the right one because you never even looked past the one you were born into.

(Reeeeealllly loooooong pause. I hope she hasn't scampered like a fluffy bunny!)

Are you still there Bonnie?

Bonnie: I'm here. (Wow, after I called Joseph Smith "just a man" and everything, she's still here!)

Me: What do you know, what reason to believe do you have, that people of other faiths don't have?

Bonnie: It is hard to know what they are feeling. The Spirit will testify differently to me than to you. (Crappy Spirit.) But I know that you can know truth by study and prayer. That is how we acquire scriptual truth. (Point of order, "scriptural truth" has not been shown to, ya know, actually BE true.)

Me: Bonnie, what I'm asking is very simple. What evidence do you have that what you believe is true? What logical reason could you give someone else to explain why your scripture is right, and the other ones that you haven't read or studied are all wrong?

That seems like it should be easy for a missionary to explain. Why is your religion any better than the thousands of other ones that have existed?

Bonnie: I have the Book of Mormon. I have the knowledge of a modern-day prophet. (And I have days of the week underpants*. Neither one tells me why LDS is better than Christian Science. I asked for evidence and you give me scripture?)

Me: And my Muslim friends have the Koran and the wisdom of their Imams. Catholics have the Holy Bible and the wisdom of their Pope. Tibetan Buddhists have their scripture and the Dalai Llama. (Do Buddhistst have scripture? I was banking on her not being able to correct me on that one if I was wrong.)

So what reason do you have for why anyone should pick LDS instead of one of the other religions, or no religion at all?

Bonnie: Because after the death of Christ and His apostles the earth fell into apostasy. God restored truth to the earth through a prophet again. That is why.

Me: But that's only believed by Mormons. No one else believes that, so it's not a verifiable fact you can point to. I mean, just because the Book of Mormon says it's true doesn't mean it is. The Koran says that it's divine truth too. All the scriptures do - that's what makes them scripture.

Bonnie: And anybody can know it is true as they study and read it.

Me: Do you agree that Muslims and Hindus are deceived, and that their religion is man made and not true?

Bonnie: Spiritual truth is available to everybody.

I believe that every church/religion has some truth in it, but not the whole truth. (And nothing but the truth, so help me god?)

Me: Yeah, most religions claim that they're the only right one and that anybody can be saved as soon a they convert.

Why is TRUE for LDS and not true of the others?

Bonnie: Because we believe that this is Jesus Christ's church once again restored to the earth in is fulness. We believe this is where the Priesthood authority, power given to man to act in God's name, is found that provides saving ordinances.

Me: I know what you believe. (Not deeply, but a little after all these chats.)

What I'm asking is: How do you know for certain that Mormons aren't deceived, too - just like Muslims and Buddhists and everybody else?

Bonnie: Because I believe the Lord has revealed truth to me. (Well, isn't that jut a succinct summary on the history of insanity: "I've got specially revealed knowledge!")

Me: I'm not asking about what you believe. I'm asking about what you know. Or WHY you believe it.

There must be some reason that you're a Mormon and not a Muslim. What is the reason?

Bonnie: I have already explained why I believe it I don't know how else to explain it.

Me: So there's no evidence that the things Joseph Smith wrote in the Book of Mormon are actually true. You just believe it because you've never looked at anything else, and you've been a Mormon you're entire life, not just since you were 18. You said you never really stopped being a Mormon.

You don't actually have a reason to believe. It's just what you've always done. Right?

Bonnie: Joseph Smith translated it by the power of God. There is no way he could have made up the Book of Mormon. (*spittake*) I know it is the word of God.

I have many reasons to believe, which I have explained. I just don't know how else to convey it. (You've explained far more than you realize.)

Me: It could easily have been made up. In fact, everyone who knows about the story and isn't a Mormon thinks that he DID make it up.

No, you just said that you felt like it was true, or you felt like god said it was so or you felt like it made sense. But none of those are unique to LDS. Every religious person has those "reasons" for their beliefs.

What you don't have is anything that actually points to it being TRUE. Don't you care if what you believe is true? I know I do. That's why I study so many religions, and so much history and everything else.

Bonnie: I hope that through your study you are able to find truth. (Translation: This is uncomfortable. I'm going to go bye-bye now.)

Me: You too. I think you'd have a much better shot at it if you studied something you hadn't been spoonfed since birth.

It's good to question your faith. If God is real, he'll honor that desire for truth. (And if he's real and won't, then he's a prick not worthy of worship.)

Bonnie: I respect your beleifs. I know these things are true and know that you can know them too as you prayerfully study the Book of Mormon. I have questioned my faith and I have received an answer. It was great talking with you. Have a wonderful day!

Me: Ask some of your friends why they left and really listen to their answers. I"m guess it's not because they forgot they could be forgiven.

Bonnie: Will do. Have a great day! (Exclamation marks mean it's polite for me to go away now!)

Me: You too :)



That was FUN. So what did we learn this time?

It is possible to have an hour long chat with a Mormon and not be sent to Moroni 10 or Nephi 7. And probably some other stuff, too. But this post took forever and it's nearly time to grab the Little Man from the bus stop. Rest assured, I did my best to plant seeds of doubt.

In the meantime, I have to share with you this delightful video my brother sent of Buffy kicking that pansy stalker Edward's ass.



Seriously - vampires that *glitter* in the sun? That's what happens when a MORMON writes a vampire story. The kick-ass-tacular Buffy is created by atheist and secular humanist Joss Whedon.










* It is still Tuesday, right?

** Why is Miss South Carolina considered an idiot for her inane comments, yet Miss My-Gay-Dads-Shouldn't-Marry California was on all the talk shows being toasted for her "bravery"?

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God is Love? pt. 2

This is the second part, and you really should read the first. I'm deconstructing an argument from its first premise, so go read that post, and I'll wait for you.

*whistles*

Okay, let's get started.

God is Love: How Should we Define Love?
When the Scriptures say, "God is love," they aren't telling us that God is some nebulous, warm fuzzy feeling of love. The writers who penned the scriptures weren't saying that in our limited form of human love we will find God. Not at all -- in fact, when we read that God is love in the Bible, this means that God defines love. And when we say that God defines love, we don't mean that He defines it like Webster might define something -- we mean that God is the very definition of love itself. There is no such thing as love without God. As hard as we might try, we cannot define love outside of knowing God. This essentially means that our human definition of love is false.

I knew it, I knew it! I told you this author didn't actually accept the definition of love from the dictionary. And, oddly enough, I feel the need to define the word "define" for this author. So, from Dictionary.com

1. to state or set forth the meaning of (a word, phrase, etc.)
2. to explain or identify the nature or essential qualities of
3. to fix or lay down definitely; specify distinctly
   

Our author has failed to do all three of these things, regarding love. The definition "intense affection based on familial or personal ties" has been misconstrued repeatedly - as physical or sexual attraction, as a choice to be committed to your word, as being based on feelings and emotions (rather than familial or personal ties), as being self-serving in nature, and as being a "nebulous, warm fuzzy feeling." Yet s/he has not stated or set forth an alternate meaning (s/he acted as though this straw man was the dictionary definition); has yet to explain or identify the nature or essential qualities of love; and has failed to fix or lay down definitely, or to specify distinctly (or even vaguely) what love is. To then say "God defines love" tells us what love is (or God is) no better than the statement "God defines pancakes" because "love" has now been stripped of all meaning. (I've gotta quit blogging before breakfast.)

Like a creationist with no evidence for creation, the author has spent the whole article thus far attacking a straw man of the other side, rather than giving justification and reason to suppose his/her thoughts actually represent anything true. And to all my readers, especially those who've escaped cults, I love you - without knowing any gods. I love my son demonstrably more than the God of the Bible loved his - I will never torture my son to death or allow others to torture him to death (or at all). Certainly that torture and death wouldn't make me love THEM any more. Homicidal rage is closer to the feeling I imagine I'd have.

Since this entire argument was based on faulty premises and word shystery, the conclusion that "our human definition of love is false" is nothing more than an unsupported claim, and a rather stupid one at that. Moving on.

God is the Creator of all things, and by His very nature, He is love. God says love is unconditional and sacrificial, and it's not based on feelings; therefore, love is not an "intense affection… based on familial or personal ties". To understand what true love is and to be able to truly love others, we must know God, and we can do this through a close personal relationship with Him. We can have that close relationship with God by putting our faith in Jesus Christ, who was God's sacrifice of love for us.

First of all, let's nip this idea that God's love is unconditional in the bud. "Love" does not include torture; therefore if the whole theology is true, there are billions of souls God does not love in hell right now. There's also the question of how much of a sacrifice the crucifixion really was. Obviously, it's a horrific and painful way to die - so is AIDS. Jesus was apparently accused, betrayed, tried, convicted, and executed all on the same day. It was undoubtedly a bad day, and after it followed three days in hell, but then his pain was over and he got to be God forever. There are no prison sentences or parole boards in hell for the rest of us - it's eternity for everyone, regardless of infraction.

Also, extreme (and clumsy) word shystery. "It is not based on feelings, therefore it is not based on familial or personal ties." Huh? "It is not A, therefore it is not B?" Despite the author's intentions, I haven't bought the idea that feelings and ties are the same; A does not equal B. (What's the name of this logical fallacy? I'd really to know which one it is. It's like s/he's starting halfway through a syllogism.)

God is Love: True Love Only Comes Through a Relationship With Him
God is Love! As such, true love -- God's love -- can be summed up in this passage of scripture: "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another." (1 John 4:7-11)

I don't know how many of you have had either a cult leader or a creepy stalkerish ex, but if you haven't just try to imagine. The only thing we've been told about God's love - repeatedly now - is that he loved us enough to kill someone for us, and has even already done it! Imagine you're on a first date. Over the appetizers, your date tells you, "I love you so much that I already killed my son for you." Do you:

a) Enter into a relationship with this person?
b) Commit your entire life to doing as this person pleases, in a groveling self-loathing attempt to curry favor?
c) Order your entree while you think things over?
d) Run like there's a pack of wild dogs chasing you?

(The correct answer is "D". All others lead to cults.) Obviously this idea that people who don't know god (atheists for sure, and possibly theists of other faiths) don't love is just not true. Love is a human thing, not something divine.

If you want to know this love - true love -- get to know God. He is ready to pour out His love on you, and He wants to teach you how to love others as He loves you.

What, murderously and cruelly? I don't want to love people the way god supposedly loves us; I don't want other people to love me that way either. Love is two people coming together in affectio nand care for one another. When one person has the power of another's life in their very hands - and threatens that life continuously and with great variety - "love" is not present. Holding a gun to someone's head and saying, "Love me or I'll blow your brains out" is not love. Neither is "Believe this story even though every thing logical tells you not to or you'll suffer eternal torment in a lake of fire".

The author and I agree on one thing: God does not fit the definition of love. I'm just the only one to admit that means that he isn't love.

Also, "pour out his love on you" just sounds gross.

The very real core reason I don't believe in God anymore is because I realized I could find nothing to distinguish Jesus from a cult leader. It was a heart-breaking realization, because I hated cults and I loved Jesus, but it's better to know the truth. Ignorance is not bliss - Ignorance is captivity.

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God is Love?

I must be some kind of theological masochist, because I do look for things that will piss me off, so I can explain why here, in erudite terms and Monty Python sketches. It's not hard to find objectionable material, illogical assumptions, and bogus claims when it comes to the god(s) question. All I did was search "god's love" and I found the post "God is Love" on AllAboutGod.com. (I sense another series, like the Demon Busters and EveryStudent series.) Let's just dive right in, without further preamble.

God is Love: How do we Define Love?
"God is Love", but how do we define it? The American Heritage Dictionary defines love as "an intense affection for another person based on familial or personal ties". Often this "intense affection" stems from a sexual attraction for that other person. We love other people, or we say we love other people, when we are attracted to them and when they make us feel good. Notice that a key phrase in the dictionary definition of love is the phrase "based on". This phrase implies that we love conditionally; in other words, we love someone because they fulfill a condition that we require before we can love them. How many times have you heard or said, "I love you because you are cute;" or "I love you because you take good care of me;" or "I love you because you are fun to be with"?

First, I have to object to shystery word usage. The dictionary definition of love was "an intense affection for another person based on familial or personal ties" (emphasis added). Yet the author immediately substitutes this concept for sexual desire and physical attraction. I love my best friend Cay. She and I went on crazy hitch-hiking road trips together all around the state of Florida. We have been broke together, lost without a car together, going through break ups together, and loving each other for years. And I have no desire to have sex with her. (You're very pretty, Cay. You're just too heterosexual and female for me.)

The author substitutes intense affection for sexual attraction, and ignores the genuine fondness that can exist between friends. In part because my family was often cold, neglectful, or abusive; and in part because I grew up with a strong sense of group (rather than personal) identity, my friends are extremely important to me. Some have come and gone over the years, but the affection and love I felt for them was real, important, meaningful, and entirely non-sexual in nature. Love between friends can be really beautiful, and the author acts as if this kind of love does not exist.

Also, the phrase "based on" does not indicate that love is conditional (although I think it is). It indicates that love is not based on, for example, "feelings or emotions" or "sexual or reproductive needs"; rather, it's based on "familial or personal ties".

And I would not suppose that anyone who said they loved me for my appearance actually loved me. Unlike the unnamed author, I don't confuse sexual attraction with affection or love. And as for the person who would love me only because I'd take care of them, I would call that parasitism, not love. My ex-husband used to say my best quality was my tolerance; this was a rather bad sign considering what he expected me to tolerate. He did not love me - he showed no affection based on familial or personal ties. I do not equate vampirism with love. Someone who only wants things from you - and does not care for you - does not love you. It's very simple, really. Moving on.

Our love is not only conditional, it is also mercurial. We love based on feelings and emotions that can change from one moment to the next. The divorce rate is extremely high in today's society because husbands and wives supposedly stop loving one another-or they "fall out of love". They may go through a rough patch in their marriage, and they no longer "feel" love for their spouse, so they call it quits. Evidently, their marriage vow of "till death do us part" means they can part at the death of their love for their spouse rather than at their physical death.

Well, obviously someone has a problem with people changing their minds. Of course, sometimes circumstances and information changes, too. For example, when my mom found out my dad had a girlfriend (while she was pregnant with me and married to him), she decided that new information changed the status of their relationship. She may have still loved him, still felt affection for him based on familial or personal ties, yet a divorce was the right move. My own divorce came before my husband could hit me, but after he'd begun to abuse me. Though it is true I feel no love for him now, I did not simply "hit a rough patch"; I realized the entire exercise was doomed to failure, and leaving sooner rather than later would spare my son unnecessary harm and pain.

This unwillingness to look at the various factors that go into a marriage and divorce, and to make the entire thing the contract - the vow, the promise, the "till death to us part" - contributes to the victim-blaming tone of discourse surrounding domestic violence. On the one hand, people say you must be exaggerating, or making it up, or that you're going along with it if you stay; on the other, you're called a quitter and accused of being unfaithful to your word if you go. I decided my son (and myself) mattered more than my vow, and it was undoubtedly the right thing to do. I wonder what this author has to say to women (or men) in abusive, alcoholic, or unfaithful marriages. If you're husband or wife goes to prison for pedophilia you were completely unaware of, are you a "quitter" and just falling "out of love" in a "rough patch" if you decide to get a divorce? Really, the idea that marriage is simply a decision to be faithful to your word is ridiculous and cruel. Marriage involves people, sex, and money, and is therefore never simple.

Can anyone really comprehend "unconditional" love? It seems the love that parents have for their children is as close to unconditional love as we can get without the help of God's love in our lives. We continue to love our children through good times and bad, and we don't stop loving them if they don't meet the expectations we may have for them. We make a choice to love our children even when we consider them unlovable; our love doesn't stop when we don't "feel" love for them. This is similar to God's love for us, but as we shall see, God's love transcends the human definition of love to a point that is hard for us to comprehend.

I have never and would never see my son as "unlovable"! I might be angry with him - I might, in frustrated moments of motherhood, yell at him. But I never stop loving him. And even if I were to, that wouldn't mean he was unable or unworthy of being loved by anyone else. Hitler had two fiancees, okay? My son will never be unlovable in my eyes, even if he grows up to do actions I detest. All people deserve and need love. Some people are broken, and can't give it or get it, but even they aren't "unlovable". I still my love my grandmother, and she broke my brain and killed babies! I still feel affection for her - even as angry with her as I am, and as much as I honestly think the world would be better off if she'd never lived. Based on familial and personal ties, yes, I a godless atheist, still love her. "God is love", my keester. I have yet to see anything "transcendent" about the love of a god who would doom most of eternity to suffer and be tortured for-EV-er.

God is Love: How does God Define Love?
The Bible tells us that "God is Love" (1 John 4:8). But how can we even begin to understand that truth? There are many passages in the Bible that give us God's definition of love. The most well known verse is John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." So one way God defines love is in the act of giving.

God defines love in the act of withholding, not in giving. He wants people to kiss his keester (praise him and glorify his name) and believe his cockamamie story instead of all the other cockamamie stories. That's not love - that's a mind game. Since the Christian has used John 3:16, I'll rebut with my usual - John 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." (emphasis mine). I think I'm gonna change the ATAT banner quote to this verse. And I was only half-kidding about getting it as a tattoo.

However, what God gave (or should we say, "who" God gave) was not a mere gift-wrapped present; God sacrificed His only Son so that we, who put our faith in His Son, will not spend eternity separated from Him. This is an amazing love, because we are the ones who choose to be separated from God through our own sin, yet it's God who mends the separation through His intense personal sacrifice, and all we have to do is accept His gift.

This is typical apologist "Jesus loves you" cheer leading, but the love shown by God through the crucifixion of his son is not amazing - it's twisted penal substitution from crimes god created us guilty of, and which he decreed were crimes or "sins" in the first place.

Also, I think it's time we address the daddy issues Jesus undoubtedly had. I don't care if you try to say they're the same god - they have a parent-child relationship. And daddy god said son god got to be beaten and scourged and nailed to a couple planks of wood. That's not a model of loving parenting. That's murderous, sadistic, and cruel. It is not love of any definition that actually means love. It does not show intense affection from god toward Jesus. And I think the way someone treats their family tells you a lot about them.

God killed his son. Abraham believed God asked him to kill his son. My grandmother would have used him as justification to call my mother. Why do people worship him? How did killing his son turn into an evidence for his love for all of us? It's not like he had to kill Jesus. He's omnipotent, right? Couldn't he just give us this gift without killing his son? I have a son. I would not kill him for the love of any one of you. It certainly wouldn't be my first choice for ways I could forgive you for wrongs I perceived you had done to me. Substitionary punishment is a wicked concept. Atonement is... removed from natural consequences, from cause and effect, and from responsibility for our actions. Now of course I don't believe gods are real or that I've sinned against any of them. But I think having one person pay another's debt, or get fired for another's misconduct, or be jailed for another's crime is unjust and immoral. It's not "beyond comprehension" because it's so fantastic - it's beyond comprehension how we've twisted ourselves into believing this garbage.

And we did not "choose" to be separated from god through our sin. Read your whole Bible, Christians. The curse, the Fall, whatever you wanna call it - God determined that all humans after Adam and Eve (minus Jesus) would be born with a sinful nature, and already deserving hell and death. (The rather insane ramblings on that linked page look like fun to deal with later, because they've at least got scriptural backing longer than the two verses up ahead.)

Another great verse about God's love is found in Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." In this verse and in John 3:16, we find no conditions placed on God's love for us. God doesn't say, "as soon as you clean up your act, I'll love you; " nor does He say, "I'll sacrifice my Son if you promise to love Me." In fact, in Romans 5:8, we find just the opposite. God wants us to know that His love is unconditional, so He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die for us while we were still unlovable sinners. We didn't have to get clean, and we didn't have to make any promises to God before we could experience His love. His love for us has always existed, and because of that, He did all the giving and sacrificing long before we were even aware that we needed His love.

I like the narrowing down of scripture to make sure it fits the author's case, "In this verse and that other one I cherry-picked, we find no conditions placed on God's love for us." (Of course, if s/he'd just read two verses farther to John 3:18, the conditions on God's love would be obvious.) Further I vehemently reject the idea that I am or have ever been unlovable. I spent my childhood and teen years believing that, and it did me no good at all and quite a bit of harm. Religion teaches, fosters, and creates man's inhumanity toward man, through doctrines and beliefs like this. Of course I don't need to get clean; I am not dirty. I owe nothing to god, and if he exists, he owes quite a lot to me. I upheld my end of the bargain for years and he failed me (or you know, never existed in the first place).

And even supposing God did the crucifix/atonement combo, let's not forget that it was allegedly God who created mankind without the knowledge of good and evil, set up a scenario in which humans were doomed to fail, cursed them and all future generations for that forever, gave each of us a sin nature, and determined the punishment for being born with this nature that he demanded we all be born with. Christians think that it's the devil or the world that has them ensnared, but if we really are born into captivity and sin, it's entirely God's doing. The idea that two infantile creatures could bear the responsibility for every sin ever committed, or the introduction of sin into the world which would then affect everyone for the rest of human existence, is obviously wicked. God often seems to punish the many for the crimes of the few, and I'll be doing a post on that as soon as my brain coughs up enough cool phrases and segues.

God is Love: It's Unconditional
God is Love, and His love is very different from human love. God's love is unconditional, and it's not based on feelings or emotions. He doesn't love us because we're lovable or because we make Him feel good; He loves us because He is love. He created us to have a loving relationship with Him, and He sacrificed His own Son (who also willingly died for us) to restore that relationship.

Let's substitute the word "love" here to show how nonsensical that paragraph really is, with the word "pancakes" (because I haven't had breakfast yet).

"God is Pancakes, and His pancakes are very different from human pancakes. God's pancakes are unconditional, and not based on flour and egg yolk. He doesn't pancake us because we're pancake-able or because we make Him feel good; He pancakes us because He is pancakes. He created us to have a pancaking relationship with Him, and He sacrificed His own Waffle (who also willingly drowned in syrup for us) to restore that breakfast pastry. RAmen."

Obviously, that was over the top, but I wanted to illustrate how "God's love" still hasn't been defined at all. We're being told that it's different from human love, that it's not based on feelings or emotions, and - wait a minute - Straw man! Love was clearly defined as being based on "familial and personal ties" not "feelings or emotions". Again, shystery word usage is the main staple of apologists; it's not like they've got evidence on their side. But this is really my point: The author pretends to have defined love, and hasn't.

The dictionary definition of love seems suitable to me, but the author has spent the entire article so far disagreeing with that definition, suggesting that rather than being based on "familial and personal ties", love is merely physical attraction, or fleeting emotion, or is entirely dependent on what I can gain from another person. To then paint this non-definition of love as the straw man and pit it against 'something better' when god's love is so obviously inferior to what we know love to be, is dishonest. It also renders the word "love" meaningless. If love doesn't mean "intense affection based on familial or personal ties", and no other definition has been offered, then love may as well mean pancakes.

I'm gonna break here for now, and see you all tomorrow. I wish I had better arguments to combat, sometimes I feel like this is the conversation once a theist gets involved.

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Why Pick the God of the Bible? pt. 3

That is a Wordle, ranking word usage on my home page by font size. Cool! Click on it to open a new window and randomize the word placement, font style and colors, or make your own.

Now, gentle readers, the time has come to conclude our series "Why Pick the God of the Bible?" The reasons haven't been compelling thus far, and my atheism has remained intact through the first and second posts on this question.

Previously seen on Angie the Anti-Theist (in cool Hulu announcer voice)

1. A God Who is Greater than We Are
2. A God Who Can Be Known Personally
3. A God Who Can Relate to the Human Experience
4. A God Who Really Cares About Us
5. A God Who Has Things Completely Under Control
   

Continuing and concluding our 3 part series "Why Pick the God of the Bible", today we'll begin with

• The nature of God - A God Who Gives Meaning and Purpose to Life

If you think about an important task or project you completed, you probably recall the sense of purpose you had when it was all over. Is that what you want your overall life to be like? To amount to something? Could there be a God who created your life with purpose, and can lead you to experience that purpose?

Wait a second, accomplishment and purpose are not the same. I felt very accomplished for my work achievements as middle management for an internet education company, but it wasn't my purpose in life, and it wasn't what gave my life meaning. So, let's remove this false equivalency in a moment, but first I want to look at this closely. I do want my overall life to include accomplishment, pride, and jobs well done. Since I don't believe in any supernatural beings of any kind (ghosts, Martians*, and angels included) I think humans are entirely responsible for our actions, and should get the praise for our achievements. So, a god that created my life with a purpose is actually one that interferes with my ability to feel that pride and accomplishment. (How ridiculous is it to see a professional athlete, who spends hundreds of hours practicing and getting into proper physical condition, drop to his knees to thank GOD for his game-changer move?)**

Yes. The God of the Bible can. He promises that he can make our lives meaningful and purposeful. Through a relationship with him, we can "do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." We can make a positive difference in the lives of others. We can become part of his master plan.

Try this little experiment with me, if you please. Think of the most cyborg/zombified/"yes master" voice you can. Now re-read the above paragraph, with Scientology terms.

Yes. L. Ron Hubbard of Dianetics can. He promises that he can make our lives meaningful and purposeful. Through a relationship with him and the Church of Scientology, we can clear the planet of Lord Xenu's thetans. We can make a positive difference in the lives of others. We can become part of his master plan.

Ah, cults - Giving rudderless people a sense of purpose since 6,000 BCE TM

The God of the Bible also says that, in a moment-by-moment relationship with him, he can direct our steps so that we can do what pleases him, and what's in our own best interest at all times. "In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight." This is not to say that life becomes perfectly wonderful. There is still illness, problems in life, and personal failures. Life does not become perfect, but it becomes more enriching. The benefits of knowing God, he says, are "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Anyone else find this proposition threatening to their autonomy? What can I say? After a totalitarian cult childhood, I'm commitment-phobic when it comes to omnipotent, jealous deities. (Besides, Yahweh would be the worst boyfriend ever. And if Mary was still able to claim virginity, even after he knocked her up, I'm guessing he wasn't making up for his asshole ways in the bedroom.)

I've written about the Fruits of the Spirit before (and how they're completely within the scope of non-theists and non-Christian theists to acquire). Even supposing a relationship with JC/YHW really did provide those things, would it be worth the cost of autonomy and adult responsibility? The idea of anyone "moment by moment" telling me how I can direct my steps to please him makes me want a get a restraining order, a second billy club, and about twenty hot showers. Skeezy! Talk about your controlling jealous type.

Obviously I'm not in the market for a god who "gives meaning and purpose", especially if said god wants to do this by directing my steps moment by moment in a Stalinesque dictatorial psycho stalker boyfriend kind of way. Let's move on to the next plug for Biblegod.

Oh, and the sentence should be "There are still illnesses, problems, etc." (Sticklers unite!)

• The nature of God - A God Who Offers True Fulfillment

Like love and acceptance, most of us want to find fulfillment in life. There seems to be something akin to a thirst within us that yearns to be quenched. But that thirst -- even though we try -- does not get satisfied by things such as money, possessions, romance, or even fun. Therefore, wouldn't it be great if there was a God who satisfies that "thirst," a God whose presence brings a constant level of satisfaction to life?

Most of us want fulfillment. Some are just slackers, right? Or born in poverty. I mean, it's not like Bible God gives them true fulfillment, or at least not this straw man fulfillment of constant satisfaction. Personally, I don't ever want to stop learning, thinking, and improving myself. I don't have a thirst for god, though. (More of a gagging sensation.) And for (I sincerely hope) the last freaking time, "wouldn't it be great" is not an argument. It's wishful thinking, and it shouldn't get to call itself an apologetic.

The God of the Bible offers the most fulfilling life possible. Jesus said, "I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full." He also said, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty." So, the God of the Bible promises to quench that inner longing that nothing else seems to satisfy. (And he has probably made us in such a way that that is exactly the case!)

Hang on a minute. Let's analyze what this actually says about God's supposed actions. He is all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful. He sets up a trap whereby Adam and Eve will only learn what is right and what is wrong after committing a sin that God punishes all future humanity for, with full knowledge of the outcome. He then cursed all future generations of humankind to be born with an inherent sinful nature (except his Son, who then somehow still gets lots of credit for resisting temptation). He made sin incompatible with his nature, and a sinful nature unable to reside in heaven with him. (He made hell as the only other alternative.) Then, in addition to this sinful nature he requires us to have and then rid ourselves of or overcome, he also gives each of us an "inner longing that nothing else seems to satisfy" so that we'll be unhappy unless we're doing what he says?

And you think you have free-will????

That's dictatorship. Celestial is no better than earthly. Might doesn't make right, and this is the worst plan for salvation EVER! Pile the sins on a goat or a god-man and kill it and then everything's okay? Christians like to pretend Jesus ended animal sacrifice, but Christianity just glorifies human sacrifice so much it's disgusting. (Check out these passionate Christians.)

Easter 'crucifixions'

That is not life to the fullest. That is glorification of death. (So is the after-life obsession.)

• The Ideal God

According to the Bible, there is only one true God, only one Creator of all things. But that God is an ideal God. We cannot wish another God into existence, but even if we could, why would we want to? The true God is already the best possible God.

*spit take* Huh? Okay, let me deal with this. "According to the Bible" is worth no more than the paper it's printed on, and possibly it's worth less. EveryStudent, you've given me no reason at all to suppose that the Bible is accurate, so its claims to exclusivity aren't persuasive arguments. The assertion that the Bible God is "an ideal" is problematic. First, an ideal god hasn't been defined. If I was to compile a list of characteristics and traits that I think would best describe an ideal god, jealousy and vengeance wouldn't be on my list. Nor would cystic fibrosis or polio.

I'm glad you've conceded, EveryStudent, that you "cannot wish [a] god into existence". Which is sort of the point I was making each time I objected to "Wouldn't it be nice" style "reasons" in my prior posts. And why would you want the Bible god? As Richard Dawkins aptly said,

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction.

Bah. The immorality of god is a real problem that Christians need to answer for. (Or you can deconvert. I'm cool with that, too. Might I recommend Ex-Christian.net as a place to hang out while you get used to the truth?)

If you are sincere, and if the God of the Bible is real, wouldn't it make sense that he would reveal himself to you? He says, "I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me."³⁴ "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."

You would think so, wouldn't you? And yet I and many other atheists were sincere, and no god revealed itself to any of us. He did not say he loved us, and when we sought, he was nowhere to be found. I knocked, but no door opened. Wouldn't it make sense that this is an indication that this god doesn't exist?

Are you wondering how you can know this ideal God? Basically, beginning a relationship with God is a lot like beginning a marriage. There is a decision to willfully enter into this relationship. Similarly, with God, it's a matter of you saying to him, and sincerely meaning, "I do."

Well I don't plan on bowing before any gods before I die, and I don't plan on having another marriage, either. Both experiences sucked. And again, the EveryStudent definition of same or "a lot like" is much broader than mine. (He may have been a jackass, but at least I knew my ex-husband was real.)

God is no respecter of persons. All people have been created in his image. Thus, his eternal family is described as "a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language."³⁷ And no sin in your life can bar you from beginning a relationship with him. He took care of the sin issue on the cross, where Jesus was crucified. Now it's a matter of you putting your faith in Jesus' death on your behalf, no matter what you've done in the past.

Um, I agree that the Bible God character is extremely disrespectful of persons. (I might even go with mass-murdering fuck head.) And again, I must clarify for the Christian ignorant of their own Bible - there is one sin that can "bar you from beginning a relationship with him" and that sin is apostasy. (Ahem, I deny the Holy Spirit y'all.) And is anyone else slightly skeeved out by the phrase "put your faith in [his] death"? The glorification of death in Christianity, and the obsession with blood, is actually really weird if you step back and look at it. The Christian faith is full of double-speak about serving to be free, and dying to live forever. It's crazy talk, and it's bothersome that more people don't think about this.

The rest of the article is just the sinner's prayer and more on how Jesus saves (all others pay retail). Like I did with The Story, I'm going to be emailing the authors of this article to let them know about my response, and provide them links to my blasphemous blog. Good times :)


* A sufficiently advanced technology is essentially "magic" or supernatural. Also, I didn't say extraterrestrials. I said Martians, as in little green men from Mars, where we have the Mars Rover and zero little green men thus far.

** Sometimes I write posts a few days before I publish them. I wrote this sentence before someone sent me this Raiders story. Which just sort of shows what I mean about the whole "pathetic" thing.

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