Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 9

It's that special time again - time for Angie to pull out the dumb blonde agnostic routine and chat with a Mormon.

I went with the gender neutral name Terry today, so we'll see how that results. Once again, I have a female missionary. (The first five were all guys. I didn't even know women worked at that BYU computer bank.)

You are speaking live with Bonnie, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the church.

Bonnie: Hi! How can I help you?

Me: Hi Bonnie, I'm interested in learning more about LDS.

Bonnie: That's great. What is your religious background?
(Let's quickly steer the conversation elsewhere. I don't want this to be a referendum on my atheism, but an exploration of why SHE believes something without good reason. Watch how I move.)

Me: Christian.

How about you - were your parents Mormon or did you convert?

Bonnie: My parents were both Mormon, but then they were divorced and my mom stopped practicing. It was my choice. (Don't ya know mom would be fascinating to talk to, but the Church of LDS doesn't exactly keep apostates as missionaries.)

Me: Oh. Sorry about your parents' divorce (genuine). So did you attend when you were little, and then started going back later on in life?

Bonnie: Yes. I always kind of went but didn't start going faithfully until I was about 18.

Me: So what made you go back to it, or commit to it more?

Bonnie: I read the Book of Mormon and that changed my life. I gained a testimony/relationship with my Savior. I realized what is most important in life.

Me: And what is more important in life to you?

Bonnie: God, Jesus Christ, family. That is where true happiness is found. Serving and loving others. (There are parts of these phrases I whole-heartedly agree with. I get a lot of satisfaction out of working on this blog, and part of that comes from knowing it helps others. But part of it is totally self-centered and vain - all autobiography blogs surely must be a little conceited. Right?)

Me: So you like being a Mormon because it gives you happiness

Bonnie: Yes and because this is where the truth is found.

Me: Did you look at other religions, to see which one you liked best, or did you always just know that LDS was right for you?

Truth is something I'm very interested in.

Bonnie: I knew it was true after I read the Book of Mormon.

Me: Was that before or after you were 18 and recommitted yourself to your faith?

Bonnie: After. (I was not expecting this answer. Did she never read BoM as a child in LDS church? That seems doubtful. And also, if it was after she recommitted herself - what made her do that in the first place?)

I know you can know truth as well as you study and pray about these things.

Me: So you didn't look at any other faiths, just Mormonism?

Bonnie: I have been exposed to other faiths since my step-dad is not a member of this Church. I have been to a few different churches with His family.

Me: But you haven't looked into the tenants or truth of Islam or Hindu or Sikh, right?

Bonnie: I have not

They were mostly protestant and christian denominations.
(Ah, so still God, Jesus, etc. that she listed as being the benefits of Mormonism.)

Me: So you don't really know how other religions with other gods compare. Okay. (Summary statements are wonderful.)

So, if you didn't pick LDS because it was better than other religions, why did you?

Bonnie: Because I know it is true.

Me: What are you basing that on? I mean, you didn't rule out the other ones because they were false or something was wrong with their scripture, right? You just "know" that the one you grew up with is true. How?

Bonnie: I prayed about it and asked God. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. If there is only one God there has to be only one true church. All churches have truth, but one must contain the fulness of the truth.

(This has the taste of rote recitation. I can almost hear the droning voices saying that en masse in a high-cielinged room each week. I don't know if Mormons actually have some kind of "statement of the faith" that they reaffirm each week like Catholics and Episcopalians, but I'm guessing if they did, it would sound like THIS. So let's deconstruct it - premise by premise. Seeds of doubt, baby. That's my goal in these. (And boosting readership. I think more people must do searches for "mormon lol" than anything, because I always get a ton of new readers for the Chatting with Mormon series. Hi new readers!))

Me: Let me make sure I understand what you're saying.

You grew up Mormon, but not very religious about it. At 18 you read the Book of Mormon and prayed about it. You didn't look at or try out any other religions in the meantime.

Bonnie: I guess not

Me: When you prayed it felt like God confirmed that everything you'd been taught was true, right?

Why do you suppose that there is exactly one god? What led you to conclude that there's one instead of zero or three or a hundred?

Bonnie: Because it makes sense that there would be only one God. That's the scriptures and prophets teach. (Definition: "makes sense" - "doesn't cause cognitive dissonance with the beliefs I already accept as true.)

Me: In LDS religion, sure.

But in a lot of religions there are more than one god. So why does "one god" make more sense?

Bonnie: It would be too confusing if there were multiple Gods. (Somehow the Hindus and Catholics manage it.)

Me: So you think one god is less confusing. Why do you think that would mean there was only one true church? How do you know that all paths, or many paths, don't lead to god?

Bonnie: Because God has set up one plan. That is how we return to God.

Me: What made you conclude that? What was your thought process like?

Bonnie: I studied and prayed and asked God. (That is not a thought process, sweetheart.)

Me: Do you believe that god is angry with people who follow the wrong religion?

Bonnie:I think he knows the thoughts and intents of their hearts. I don't think He is made but He knows they can be happier with the fulness of truth.

Me: Well, I know the Bible says that God is jealous. So does the Koran. What does the Book of Mormon say?

Bonnie: Same thing.

Me: Okay. So if there is one god, and only one path to him, how do you know that Mormonism is right, instead of Catholicism or Islam or Judaism or something?

Bonnie: I have studied, prayed, asked God, and received an answer.

Me: But you only studied the one religion.

Right?

Bonnie: True. (You're damn right it's true. It's also the *point*.)

Me: Okay. Do you believe that people can be deceived by false teachers or false gods?

Bonnie: I do. That is why it is so important to pray and ask God. He knows everything.
(The claw is our master! The claw chooses who will go and who will stay. The claw!)
C


Me: That's a comforting thought :)
(When you can't say something nice, say something condescending that *sounds* nice!)

Do you believe that demons or the devil can talk to us and tempt us?

Bonnie: I think we can be tempted. Everything that is good comes from God, that which is not good does not come from God.

Me: So we only make good choices if we have god in our lives?

Because Bill Gates is an atheist, and he's really successful, and he's also a good person. He gives a huge portion of his income to charity and does a lot of good. He doesn't have god. So do you mean something different, and I'm just missing the point? :)

(I love Bill Gates as an atheist example. I use Brad and Angelina a lot too, but I'm guessing the liberal "in sin" Hollywood aspects might lose her.)

Bonnie: You were asking if the devil can tempt us, my answer is yes. When we follow those bad choices we are not following God.
(Notice the dodge around my question - what about people who do good without god?)

Me; Okay. So when you prayed about the Book of Mormon, how are you certain that it was God who told you that it was the truth, and not the devil, or just your own thoughts?

Bonnie: Because it made sense and because I felt the Spirit.
("Made sense" can be thought of as "did not cause cognitive dissonance with already held beliefs".)

Me: What did the Spirit feel like?

Bonnie: In Galations 5:22-23 states; But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance
(So not what I was asking. *facepalm*)

Me: So you felt all those things when you were praying and asking if LDS was the right one true church?

Bonnie: Yes

Me: Well, I've felt all those things before too, but I've never asked God if the Book of Mormon was true.

How do you *know* that God/Holy Spirit actually led you to LDS instead of just your own thoughts and feelings?

Most people, all over the world, end up following as adults the religion they were raised in as little kids. So I wonder if that's the real reason people end up in a religion, and not because one of them is true. (Especially not one of the *tiniest* ones.)

Bonnie: Because it made sense and I know that it was the Spirit.
(I know because I know because I don't know what "know" means.)

I actually served on a mission and had the wonderful opportunity to teach people about the church who grew up in other faiths

Me: That sounds like a lot of fun :)
(Well, it's not like she's allowed to go have sex or anything. And besides, religious debate IS fun.)

Bonnie: After they searched it out, prayed, and asked God, they received the same answer.

Me: Well, yes, every religion has some conversion and deconversion. You said your mom doesn't practice anymore, for example.

And your stepdad doesn't think it's true either.

What do you know that they don't?

Bonnie: Right.

He doesn't go to any church.

The reason people fall away, like my mom, is guilt. They make a mistake and forget tht they can be forgiven.

(Scratch! Wow. This is why I hope my kid never gets religion. What an awful way for her to feel about her mom. Of course, I'm assuming that her mom's "mistake" was a sin against god, rather than an actual harm. That would change things. Still, a rather condescending and mean attitude to have towards one's mother at the wise old age of BYU attendance.)

Me: Hmmm. That might be a reason for some people. That isn't why I left Christianity, though.

(Yes, *now* I'm ready to talk about my religious background. I've done the prep work for the bombshell.)

Bonnie: They forget their relationship with God.

Me: Again, that isn't why I left. Have you ever been an apostate?
Is that why you left the church?

Bonnie: I have never been one. (Then shut up about us!) I never really left. I just didn't practice it completely. (So going back to my original question? Yes, you have always been a Mormon.)

Me: Okay. Well, there are a lot of reasons people step away from their faith, but I don't think I've ever heard someone say they left because of guilt about their own actions.
Ever.

Bonnie: I know a lot of people that forgot they could be forgiven and so they left.
(Somehow I'm guessing that's not the interpretation they'd put on it themselves.)

Me: Well, would you like to hear a bit about my religious background?

Bonnie: Sure.

Me: I was raised Christian. I read my Bible, taught Sunday School, and went to church at least once a week. I paid my tithe.

As I got older, I made friends with people who weren't my religion. I was really sad to think they wouldn't be in heave with me after we died.

Bonnie: They will.

Me: Not in the tenants of the religion I grew up in

I used to read my Bible, and pray, and ask God to tell me what was true and what to do, and I tried to lead a good life and honor Him. (most of the time.)

Bonnie: We believe they will.

Me: Okay. I know Mormons and Christians have very different afterlife beliefs, but I think even Mormons have separate levels of heaven, so my friends who were following the "wrong religion" might not have ended up on the same level that I did, right?

(Bonnie: But before we get to that we are in a placed called Spirit World. (Ooh!) This is where we will wait till the Savior comes again. This is where every one of God's children will have the opportunity to accept His truth. It wouldn't be fair for them to be judged on something that they were never taught.

(Look, if I can go to your crappy heaven without believing your crappy religion, then the cost-benefit analysis of Pascal's Wager doesn't really work out well for Mormons.)

Me: I really love learning, so I started to read and learn more about a lot of things - science, and history, and religion. In college a lot of my friends were Muslim.

I felt like I just *knew* that their religions was wrong, and that they were good people but deceived.

Bonnie: It's true. (*snort* Confidence much?)

Me: But I started to ask myself what evidence I had for my beliefs that my Muslim friends didn't have. And you know what? There's not even any evidence that any god even exists! I was totally blown away

Bonnie: What kind of evidence are you looking for?

Me: So I started to look into it further, and I looked at the founding of various religions. I looked at the history of Islam, Christianity, and LDS

Evidence - something that shows WHY religion X is better than religion Y. Or why what religion X claims to be true actually *is* true.

I mean, from an outsider's perspective, you telling me that you read the scripture and prayed and felt like god told you LDS was right, sounds exactly the same as my Muslim friends who read the Koran and prayed and felt like god told them Islam was right.

How do you KNOW you're right?

Bonnie: I can understand how that might seem confusing. (Or batshit.)

Me: Good :)

Bonnie: I guess that's where study and meditation comes in.

Me: Yes, but like I said - other religions have that. People of other faiths list the exact same reasons for why they believe their scriptures are right that you did.

Jews study and meditate on the Torah. Muslims study and meditate on the Koran. Christians study and meditate on the Bible.

Are they all praying to god and just being deceived??

Bonnie: There is a great talk by one of our apostles about acquiring spiritual knowledge that came to mind. Would you take a minute to read it?

Me: Absolutely, Bonnie.

Bonnie: Thanks (link)

Me: You're welcome. I'll write back as soon as I'm done reading. :)

Bonnie: Perfect.

Me: Okay. I have a question about this quote from Joseph Smith. "The greatest achievement mankind can make in this world is to familiarize themselves with divine truth, so thoroughly, so perfectly, that the example or conduct of no creature living in the world can ever turn them away from the knowledge that they have obtained."

Bonnie: Okay. What's your question?

Me: If the most important thing you can do on this earth is learn divine truth (gag me with a harpsichord if *that's* true), aren't you severely limiting yourself by only looking at one religion? Joseph Smith was a man. What if he was deceived?

Bonnie: If there is only one true religion then you would not be limiting yourself.

Me: Yes, but you don't know for certain that it IS the right one. You could be missing the right one because you never even looked past the one you were born into.

(Reeeeealllly loooooong pause. I hope she hasn't scampered like a fluffy bunny!)

Are you still there Bonnie?

Bonnie: I'm here. (Wow, after I called Joseph Smith "just a man" and everything, she's still here!)

Me: What do you know, what reason to believe do you have, that people of other faiths don't have?

Bonnie: It is hard to know what they are feeling. The Spirit will testify differently to me than to you. (Crappy Spirit.) But I know that you can know truth by study and prayer. That is how we acquire scriptual truth. (Point of order, "scriptural truth" has not been shown to, ya know, actually BE true.)

Me: Bonnie, what I'm asking is very simple. What evidence do you have that what you believe is true? What logical reason could you give someone else to explain why your scripture is right, and the other ones that you haven't read or studied are all wrong?

That seems like it should be easy for a missionary to explain. Why is your religion any better than the thousands of other ones that have existed?

Bonnie: I have the Book of Mormon. I have the knowledge of a modern-day prophet. (And I have days of the week underpants*. Neither one tells me why LDS is better than Christian Science. I asked for evidence and you give me scripture?)

Me: And my Muslim friends have the Koran and the wisdom of their Imams. Catholics have the Holy Bible and the wisdom of their Pope. Tibetan Buddhists have their scripture and the Dalai Llama. (Do Buddhistst have scripture? I was banking on her not being able to correct me on that one if I was wrong.)

So what reason do you have for why anyone should pick LDS instead of one of the other religions, or no religion at all?

Bonnie: Because after the death of Christ and His apostles the earth fell into apostasy. God restored truth to the earth through a prophet again. That is why.

Me: But that's only believed by Mormons. No one else believes that, so it's not a verifiable fact you can point to. I mean, just because the Book of Mormon says it's true doesn't mean it is. The Koran says that it's divine truth too. All the scriptures do - that's what makes them scripture.

Bonnie: And anybody can know it is true as they study and read it.

Me: Do you agree that Muslims and Hindus are deceived, and that their religion is man made and not true?

Bonnie: Spiritual truth is available to everybody.

I believe that every church/religion has some truth in it, but not the whole truth. (And nothing but the truth, so help me god?)

Me: Yeah, most religions claim that they're the only right one and that anybody can be saved as soon a they convert.

Why is TRUE for LDS and not true of the others?

Bonnie: Because we believe that this is Jesus Christ's church once again restored to the earth in is fulness. We believe this is where the Priesthood authority, power given to man to act in God's name, is found that provides saving ordinances.

Me: I know what you believe. (Not deeply, but a little after all these chats.)

What I'm asking is: How do you know for certain that Mormons aren't deceived, too - just like Muslims and Buddhists and everybody else?

Bonnie: Because I believe the Lord has revealed truth to me. (Well, isn't that jut a succinct summary on the history of insanity: "I've got specially revealed knowledge!")

Me: I'm not asking about what you believe. I'm asking about what you know. Or WHY you believe it.

There must be some reason that you're a Mormon and not a Muslim. What is the reason?

Bonnie: I have already explained why I believe it I don't know how else to explain it.

Me: So there's no evidence that the things Joseph Smith wrote in the Book of Mormon are actually true. You just believe it because you've never looked at anything else, and you've been a Mormon you're entire life, not just since you were 18. You said you never really stopped being a Mormon.

You don't actually have a reason to believe. It's just what you've always done. Right?

Bonnie: Joseph Smith translated it by the power of God. There is no way he could have made up the Book of Mormon. (*spittake*) I know it is the word of God.

I have many reasons to believe, which I have explained. I just don't know how else to convey it. (You've explained far more than you realize.)

Me: It could easily have been made up. In fact, everyone who knows about the story and isn't a Mormon thinks that he DID make it up.

No, you just said that you felt like it was true, or you felt like god said it was so or you felt like it made sense. But none of those are unique to LDS. Every religious person has those "reasons" for their beliefs.

What you don't have is anything that actually points to it being TRUE. Don't you care if what you believe is true? I know I do. That's why I study so many religions, and so much history and everything else.

Bonnie: I hope that through your study you are able to find truth. (Translation: This is uncomfortable. I'm going to go bye-bye now.)

Me: You too. I think you'd have a much better shot at it if you studied something you hadn't been spoonfed since birth.

It's good to question your faith. If God is real, he'll honor that desire for truth. (And if he's real and won't, then he's a prick not worthy of worship.)

Bonnie: I respect your beleifs. I know these things are true and know that you can know them too as you prayerfully study the Book of Mormon. I have questioned my faith and I have received an answer. It was great talking with you. Have a wonderful day!

Me: Ask some of your friends why they left and really listen to their answers. I"m guess it's not because they forgot they could be forgiven.

Bonnie: Will do. Have a great day! (Exclamation marks mean it's polite for me to go away now!)

Me: You too :)



That was FUN. So what did we learn this time?

It is possible to have an hour long chat with a Mormon and not be sent to Moroni 10 or Nephi 7. And probably some other stuff, too. But this post took forever and it's nearly time to grab the Little Man from the bus stop. Rest assured, I did my best to plant seeds of doubt.

In the meantime, I have to share with you this delightful video my brother sent of Buffy kicking that pansy stalker Edward's ass.



Seriously - vampires that *glitter* in the sun? That's what happens when a MORMON writes a vampire story. The kick-ass-tacular Buffy is created by atheist and secular humanist Joss Whedon.










* It is still Tuesday, right?

** Why is Miss South Carolina considered an idiot for her inane comments, yet Miss My-Gay-Dads-Shouldn't-Marry California was on all the talk shows being toasted for her "bravery"?

Read more!

Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 8

Today I'll be posing as David, asking questions on the nature of certainty and how anyone can really know anything about "god".

You are speaking live with Katie, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Katie: hello

Me: Hi - I'm David.

Katie: how are you?

Me: I'm good, how are you?

Katie: I'm doing well, thanks
what prompted you to come on mormon.org?

Me: I have some questions about god in general and about lds specifically

Katie: great

Me: Why do you believe that Mormonism is the right religion?

Katie: what has led you to have questions about God and the church?

Me: I don't see how people can be so certain they're right, and I wonder what's different about them. (By calling it "different" instead of deficient, I'm allowing Katie to think she has an opportunity to tell me about the difference the Holy Ghost makes.)

Katie: great question
David, God has given us some incredible tools so that we can know truth
scriptures and prayer

Me: Do you mean like the rules of logic and our critical thinking skills?

Katie: let me share a little bit with you about the church
yes! Those are also important tools that he has given us
He teaches us many wonderful truths about who we are and His plan for us
through prophets
and we are invited to read their words
and to pray and ask Him is it is true

God has give us the Bible and in our day he has brought forth the Book of Mormon ("Our day" is the 1820s?)
another testament of JEsus Christ

Me: How do you know those are the right holy books?

Katie: because
I have read them abd pondered their teachings

Me: Not trying to be offensive, but when there are so many other religions and religious texts, how do you know which is right? (Notice how I continually make small social overtures which do not require me to concede a point, or agree with a factually untrue statement. "Not trying to be offensive" sounds polite without ever saying I respect her beliefs or that she should be offended that her podunk little religion sounds exactly like all the others - except the underwear part. You can build social capital by being overtly polite and pleasant. I'll cash in this political capital later.)

Katie: and most importantly I have asked God if it is true
sorry, I didn't mean to answer with just because :)

Me: or if any of them are right?

Katie: by using what you said earlier - our minds and critical thinking skills (Oh Katie, I love you. This couldn't be going any better if you were following a script!)

Me: That's ok :)

Katie: DAvid, let me share with you a little but about someone who had some simmilar questions

Me: Okay, but I'd like us to get back to this point later - about how we can use critical thinking to discern between religions

Katie: sure
that is actually still what I am getting at
as well
David, do you understand the role of a prophet?


Me: I think it's like the Mormon pope - he's always a man; he intercedes with god on behalf of his people; he gets divine revelation; and at least in the case of Catholics is supposed to be infallible. Am I right? (I don't know if Mormons dislike Catholics as much as fundamentalist/evangelical Christians do, but hell, the Prophet is just a less-rich pope.)

Katie: sort of...
God has called prophets from the begining of the earth- since Adam and Eve (Ouch. I remember thinking those were two real actual first humans, some 6,000 years ago.)
He uses a pattern to teach us
He calls righteous men and speaks to them directly- teaching them all about the gospel and His plan for us
HE commands the prophets to teach us
they teach us directly also record their words in scriptures

Me: What has led you to believe all this - that god exists, is concerned with humans, uses prophets, etc.?

Kaite: many things
one is the other part to this pattern that I am sharing

Me: ok (I find that non-committal agreements like this - as in, okay continue your case - are a good way of staying "nice" and keeping the person you're talking to from raising up defenses to communication - like sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "What I Got" by Sublime. Okay, probably not. But it's what *I* like to hum while ignoring the facts around me. Also, doing something "nice" makes someone feel like the owe you, which is often handy.)

Katie: so after God commands His prophest toteach us- and record scriptures
He commands us to read their words and to pray abotu it.
we read scriptures and are taught by prophets and then ask God if they are true
and God answers our prayers (This is self-indoctrination. The social pressure to "hear from God" in a tight community of true believers is overwhelming. In hereditary religion, you've got no choice but to interpret your own inner voice as God. Since you know you're supposed to reach the conclusion your family's dogma is true, the "voice of God" in your head tells you things in complete compliance with what your family and your religion have told you it would. It can feel very persuasive, if you believe it.)

Katie: however, many people choose not to believe or follow prophets
when people reject prophets it is called apostasy (Note: at least from this chat, apostasy for LDS is rejecting prophets, not god. interesting)

Me: I don't think people really have a choice in what they believe. I mean, either you think something is true or you don't, wouldn't you agree? (Here i try to cash in on social capital built up with earlier pleasantries, smileys, "is that rights" and non-committal agreements, but it fell a little short.)

Katie: no
we learn and study and ponder things DAvid

Me: Do you think for one moment you could choose to believe that the earth is flat?

Katie: we learn new things every day

Me: I agree we learn new things every day

Katie: no because I know it is not...
knowledge affects our beliefs
when we learn the gospel

Me: Absolutely - knowledge DOES affect our beliefs

Katie: and Gods teachings we can choose to find out if it is true or not

Me: so we may have a choice in how much and what kind of knowledge we acquire, but I don't think we "choose" our beliefs. You can't choose to believe the earth is flat, because your knowledge prevents that "choice"
(Is it wildly narcissistic to say "Ta-da!" to my computer screen when I think I've made an excellent point? Yes? Oh well.)

Katie: ok
I agree
when you know something you don't have to believe because you know
(Katie, I could kiss you!)

Me: Okay. I think we both totally agree on that. (This is actually pretty significant. If that germ of a worm of an idea gets into her head - that people don't choose to be apostates, but that knowledge affects beliefs - it will make punishment for apostasy unjust in her eyes and may get her to question her own knowledge. Or it might not, but I choose to remain hopeful.)
You said that one of the ways you know LDS is true is that you have studied and prayed over the Bible and BOM, right?

Katie: yes

Me: What about other holy texts, like the Koran?

Katie: let me share a scripture with you about it (Let me guess, Moroni 10? Nephi 5? In eight conversations I've been consistently given the same two passages.)

Me: Okay.

Katie: check out verse 3-5. This is a promise from the Book of Mormon

Me: The url/verse didn't come through

Katie: look for what God is promising us in these verses
let me try again
(link)

Me: Thanks - it worked that time.

Katie: great

Me: I've heard similar things before, from other religions. Ray Comfort of NZ is always talking about talking to god with sincerity, and my Muslim friends have shown me similar verses in the Koran.
Do you think Ray and Muslims are wrong in their religion?

Katie: I know that they are
DAvid, what did God promise in this scripture?

Me: That by praying you can ask him whether or not something is true and he'll tell you
How do you know they are? That's really the crux of the puzzle in my head. How do you know something you only believe? (Agh! I gotta slow myself down. When I ask too many questions, they don't all get answered as thoroughly as they should)

Katie: not something DAvid
the Book of Mormon
if you and pray and ask God if the Book of Mormon is true He will answer your prayers
and if you know that the Book of Mormon is true, you will know that what it teaches is true (Gee, and tautologies are statements that are tautologies.)

Me: Okay, so it's specifically the veracity of that particular book, not a promise to help you know what's true about other areas, right? (Because those might be testable claims!)
What if I pray and ask if the BOM is true and I feel like he's said "No"?

Katie: actually that knowledge helps you out with incredible ammounts of knowledge
that wont happen, but if it did then you would logically know it wasn't true (Okay, ouch on the logic front, but kudos to her crediting a rational reason for disbelief. This only ten minutes after conceding we don't choose to believe/disbelieve. So - excellent progress from Katie.)

Katie: David, I know that the Book of Mormon is true
I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet (and if I say it enough times, I can make myself believe anything)
will you read the Book of Mormon and ask God if it is true?

Me: Sure. But will you do me a favor in return?

Katie: that's great!
I know DAvid, that God will answer your prayers (with "Yes", "No", or "Wait". Same as a jug of milk.)
and you will know that the Book of Mormon is true
and incredible spiritual truths will be unfloded to you!
sure, what can I do for you?

Me: Will you read the Koran and ask god if it is true? Or the teachings of Buddha? Or the Egyptian Book of the Dead?
Because if one of those is right, I want you to find it. And if they're not right and Joseph Smith is the true prophet, they you'll have even more reason and knowledge to back up and inform your belief, like we talked about before. (Or the third stealth option - all the religions are man made, just like all the gods and prophets.)

Katie: that is true ("Booyah!" yells at the monitor are probably equally self-serving, huh?)
do you have a Book of Mormon?

Me: No, I don't. I'll order on through the site today though :)

Katie: wonderful

Me: This has been a really great conversation. I still have more questions.

Katie: DAvid, we also have wonderful missionaries in your area that can come and bring one to you and teach you more about the SAvior
will you meet with them?

Me: But maybe it would better to talk again in a couple weeks, after I've had a chance to read the Book of Mormon and you've had a chance to read the Koran. Then we can talk again, and compare notes. You can help me see why you know that this one is right

Katie: sure

Me: I have a special needs child in the home, so visitors are problematic for us. (Theme music from "Psycho" is playing in my head at the thought of battling off doorstep missionaries as my marker-weilding pants-less toddler runs about yelling "Booyah!" and hitting himself in the head with a stuffed puppy.) I do most of my socializing online as a result. (True. Sad, but true.)

Katie: would you like to set up a time to talk again?
when would work for you?
I see

Me: I would love that Katie :) Weekdays before 2 EST are generally good for me - what's best for you?

Katie: that's fine
I am online Tuesday and Friday mornings from 7am to 11 am EST
come on any time and ask for me

Me: Okay Katie. Will you get a copy of the Koran from your library? I'll order the BOM now and we can talk again soon.

Katie: it has been
thanks for talking with me

Me: Thank you - have a great day. I'm really looking forward to having another conversation about knowledge, belief, and god :)

Thank you for taking the time to chat with us and for your interest in the Church. Please know that you are welcome to worship with us any time, request a visit from Mormon missionaries, order a Book of Mormon, or continue to browse our Web site to learn more answers to life's greatest questions.


What Have We Learned?
That Katie is the best Mormon outta 8 - and what her schedule is.* She was by far the most engaging to talk to, and I felt myself actually being excited to have the conversation with her. While she made a lot of bald assertions and unsupported claims, and her concept of what "knowing" something means is so inclusive as to be fairly meaningless, she could follow a chain of logic or argument from one point to the next without getting lost. So I really am planning on having a future talk with her. I'll just have to remember that I'm "David" when I do so. (For the gender-switching explanation, check out Mormon Chat #5 below.)

I also learned that I need to stick with this particular line for most of my theist/atheist discussions. How do you "know" that something is true. It's the question that got me out of religion and out of god-belief, and it's also the one I probably have the most to say about and have thought about the most. I should never talk about the historicity of Jesus (and frankly, I don't care if a Jefferson Bible-type rabbi actually was wandering around Jerusalem or if Paul made the whole thing up in a fevered dream). I should NEVER talk about the details of any science. (I *should* link people to credible sources like Scientific American, or get back up from a friend who IS knowledgeable about science.) I CAN talk about the Bible. I can't really back anything up that I half-remember from an ACA lecture about the early church or the cannon of the Bible. Now, if I wanted to learn more about those and use them in debate, I could. But for now, I'm gonna zero in on this one. I didn't know how little evidence there was Christ's life as a Christian, but I don't think it would have made a damn bit of difference if I had. I mean, I was a day-age creationist; I was capable of cramming logical fallacies into tightly compartmentalized spaces in my head.

So, I'm gonna go order the Book of Mormon. I'm going to get way too much crap in the mail as a result, probably, but anything to take money out the Mormon church (or any church)'s pocket sounds good to me. Check out their Free Media Gallery. I urge all my readers to order as many materials as they could possibly desire. I don't like the Mormon church spends their money infringing on the rights of gay and lesbian Americans. Let's let them waste it making free Bibles for every atheist that wants to debate a Christian online. And hey, I'm pretty sure you could decorate a dorm room wall with the shiny side of all those DVDs. Or, you could have your own snark-fest, debunking, debating, mocking and maligning the content of these free materials. So come on, make me happy and accept a little junk mail.

Or just have the stuff shipped to your ex-pastor's house. Whatever works for you.**


To catch up on the whole series, please feel free to browse earlier chats.
Chatting with Mormons 1 - On Mormon history and the similarities between LDS and Islam.
Chatting with Mormons 2 - On belief, first use of Moroni 10.
Chatting with Mormons 3 - On women in the LDS church. I injured myself doing faceplams.
Chatting with Mormons 4 - On Joseph Smith's history - till the missionary ran away
Chatting with Mormons 5 - On original sin, hell, and the devil.
Chatting with Mormons 6 - On death an afterlife.
Chatting with Mormons 7 - On science, feminism, and child free by choice.


Finally, here's the kind of conversation I want to eventually have with Katie and other theists like her. This video has the honor of killing my faith :) It's fun to watch now, but I can't tell you how bad I squirmed, trying to come up with justifications that didn't sound pathetic in my own head. Ex-Christian.net, "God is Not Great", and the Atheist Experience helped me through the next bit, and now I'm as loud and proud as it's possible to be. Critical thinking = good.







* Go find your own Mormon.
** DISCLAIMER: Angie the Anti-Theist is a dumb ass with an odd sense of a humor, not a lawyer or law enforcement officer. If you broke the law, I didn't tell you to.

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 7

In this week's installment, I'll be posing as Andrew, a married man whose wife doesn't want him to convert to LDS.

You are speaking live with Jule', who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Jule': His this is Jule' and Kenzi, how can we help you?

Me: Hi I'm really interested in the Church of LDS, but my wife has a lot of hesitations.

Jule': What can we do to help?

Me: Well, I wanted some reassurance for her that she won't be treated any differently if she's a member of this church. She's a science teacher at a local community college, and wants to keep working. Also, she doesn't want to have children.

Jule': God will provide a way for everything to work out for the best if you follow his teachings.
(Is this seriously the best response you can come up with?)



Me: well, can you answer some marriage and family life questions for me?

Jule': Of course we can.
(Then why did you give me that craptastic pat answer before?)

Me: Do many women in LDS work in academic careers?
(Long pause...)

Jule': I don't know an exact number, but many women in the church have very academic careers and degrees.
("Many")

Me: Excellent. That's certainly a relief.
She's been worried I would ask her to give up her career to become a stay-at-home mother.

Jule': Education is highly encouraged in our religion.

Me: Really? It seems to me that most LDS youth are encouraged to engage in missionary work, rather than seeking a college degree.
(Cause who needs an education when the rapture's on its way?)

Jule': They are encouraged to do both. Education is stronly advised for both men and women.

Me: So they go to college while doing missionary work, or beforehand?

Jule': Usually afterwards, but some go for a little before they leave on a mission. I personally received my Associates Degree and will work on my Bachelor's when I get home.
(Good for you honey! College=good, unless of course it's BYU.)

Me: Are you a woman?

Jule': Yes

Me: Do you think it's okay for a woman in LDS to never have children - on purpose?

Jule': It's a personal decision between a husband, wife and God.
(God, in LDS, talks only to male prophets, so that's sort of like giving hubby two votes, including the veto power.)

Me: Would other members of the church look down on her for not wanting children? This is a really big concern for her.

Jule': People are different. It depends on the people in the area, but we are encouraged not to look down on anyone and love everyone no matter the choices they make.
(That sounds so sweet - you'd never guess the Mormon church spent oodles on making sure gay Californians couldn't get married!)

Me: She says that women in LDS have fewer opportunities, and that she wants to be free to dress, think, and behave as she wants. What do you think?

Jule': We are not given any fewer opportunities than anyone else. I'm not quite sure what you mean by the think and behave part of the question though.

Me: Well, what are the rules or sort of guidelines for women in LDS?

Jule': The same rules apply to the men as to the women.

Me: But, since I'm head of the household, obviously some things will be different. I mean, I get the final say, right?
(I'm sure she'll say no to this now, but later on when I ask if I should just convert anyway and threaten to leave my wife if she doesn't follow suit, we'll see how she responds then.)

Jule': That's up to you and your wife. You must council together in all family decisions.

Me: What about within the church? I know women are not prophets. Are there other things women can't be?

Jule': Women aren't prophets, bishops, preists, or hold the preisthood.
That's the only difference.

Me: That seems like a pretty big difference, lol.
Does the Church have an official stance on birth control?
(I asked this of a guy in Take ___ and want to see)

Jule': it is a big difference. ha

Me: So how does that difference play out? Are there women who want to be bishops? What happens then?

Jule': no the church doesn't have an official stance on birthcontrol, but if your wondering if it is acceptable, it is.
i don't know of that problem ever arising. as women, we accept and support the men as the leadership of the church.
andrew, we have to go, could we transfer you to someone who will continue to answer your questions?

Me: Yes please

Jule': ok. it was nice talking to you, hopefully we were able to help you out. have a nice day!

Me; Thanks so much for your time

Jule': Has transferred you to:

You are speaking live with Brent, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Brent: Hello Andrew

Me: Hi Brent, how are you?
(Pause while he catches up on reading prior conversation)

Brent: Not too bad. How are you doing today?

Me: Good. I'm interested in LDS, but my wife has concerns.

Brent: Ok I will see if I can help you out. Where would you like to start?

Me: Well, she wonders about why only men are in priesthood or leadership positions in the Church.

Brent: That is a very valid concern. I will see if I can help you out.
The women in the church do have leadership positions, they just have different authority and different responsibilities.
(Different = lesser)

Me: Different how?

Brent: Well in the church there is the priesthood, which as I think you know is only men. However there is the Relief Society for women.
LINK
That link describes more what the relief society is

Me: Okay, so it's essentially charity and missionary work.
But not leadership or doctrinal teaching, right?

Brent: Well. During a typical Sunday service there are 3 meetings (Sacrament, Sunday School and Pristhood/Relief Society). Each ward has a "Relief Society Presidency" which oversees the Relief Society

Me: And that Presidency is run by women, right?

Brent: Does that make sense?
It is.

Me: Yes, I think so. Sacrament for all (overseen by men), Sunday School for all (taught by men and women, I think) and Relief Society for women
But no woman could ever become a member of the priesthood, even if she was well-read in the Book of Mormon and the Bible?

Brent: Yes that is correct. Sunday school is often team-taught (husband and father). For instance my mother and father teach a class together. But it isn't always that way
Correct, the priesthood is reserved for men, however women are blessed because of the priesthood. You cannot use the priesthood for yourself, only for others. So women in a sense have the priesthood through their husbands if they are worthy
(Bullshit!)

Me: Worthy?

Brent: In order to have the priesthood, you must be worthy (keep the commandments, pay tithing, obey the word of wisdom, etc.)

Me: Okay, well I think you've answered my questions on priesthood. I have a few other questions though.
What is the LDS view on evolution?

Brent: We don't have one.

Me: Does BYU teach science courses?

Brent: They do, but I am not familiar with those courses, you would have to look at BYU website

Me: Okay. I just know that evolution is the foundation of all science (bio, chemistry, etc.) so that's a big concern of my wife's

Brent: Andrew I have to run, but can I transfer you again to someone else (sorry about all the transferring)

Me: No, that's okay. I'll try again another day.
(I've got places to be and things to do.)

Brent: Ok. Thank you for your time and concerns. Come back any time
Have a great day!

Me: You too :)

Massive image credits goes to the site Salamander Society

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 6

So I've been absent the past week. I figured the best way to jump back into these conversations on religin, cults, and the weird things people say is through Part 6 of our series Chatting with a Mormon. I'm posing once again as a man, "Aaron" today. Aaron's topic of questioning is the great mystery: Death.


You are speaking live with Ben, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Ben: hello

Me: Hi Ben. A friend of mine is very ill. I'm starting to wonder what happens to us when we die.

Ben: that is a great question
here is a page that is a good place to start learning
link
there are tabs on the left hand side that you can click through and read more
let me know when you are finished

Me: Okay, I've finished.

Ben: what did you learn from it?

Me: So you believe we have spirits that go on after our bodies die, but that they get reunited with our spirits?

Ben: yes, at the resurrection our spirits will be reunited with our bodies.

Me: what's the resurrection? I thought that already happened 2000 years ago on Easter

Ben: it is defined on the page i sent you

Me: Well, it just says that it's a reuniting of body and spirit, but I've never heard of such a thing before

Ben: if you click on he word it gives you a little bit more
(No, it doesn't. It just says the same thing in a little pop-out box.)

Me: why do you need or want a physical body in the afterlife?

Ben: one of the main purposes of coming to this earth was to receive a body
we need our spirit and body to be whole
here is another page you can read
link

Me: So we're whole right now, but when we die we won't be?

Ben: we are mortal right now, when we are resurrected we will be immortal
(See? It's totally worth these little chats just to find out what's so different between Christianity as a whole and that special little faith known as Mormonism.)

Me: It says Jesus was the first to be resurrected, but he raised people from the dead during his ministry on earth
like Lazarus and the centurion's daughter

Ben: their bodies were not glorified, perfected, or immortal

Me: well everything that's physical changes and deteriorates over time, even non-living things
(I love caves.)

Ben: you know the stories about lazaurs and the centurion's daughter but don't know about the resurrection?
are bodies wont following the resurrection

Me: I know about christ's resurrection but I've never heard about us having physical bodies after we're dead, no

Ben: it is a very common theme of the bible, why don't you tell me more about your religious background
I would like to better understand where you are coming from.

Me: Christian from the time I got saved when I was 3 but now I'm not so sure what to believe. (True.) I mean, if all those miracles were happening for 2000 years, why did they suddenly stop?
Here's a link

Ben: have you stopped going to church?

Me: years ago

Ben: as to your question i would like you read a chapter in the Book of Mormon
(Only for holy texts will he find the Shift Key.)
Here it is
link

Me: It seems to be saying that miracles do still happen
but you have to admit that the stories of the bible are pretty fantastic, and nothing like that is actually happening right now.

Ben: they happen everyday

Me: I mean the sun doesn't stop in the sky and there aren't rains of frogs or antyhing happening. It'd be on the evening news if they were.
What kind of miracles happen everyday?

Ben: you have to remember the bible and the book of mormon are condensed histories so the stories in them are going to be the big ones

Me: Well yes, but what kind of big stories like that happen now? You said miracles happen everyday

Ben: link
This article answers your question exactly

Me: The things he describes as "true miracles" or "macro miracles" don't seem very miraculous.
He cites things like people paying their tithe or working in missions. (Seriously dude? Half the stuff he claims is "unexplainable" I personally can explain - the rest can be explained by other humans of non-religious persuasion. WEAK!)
That happens in all kinds of religions - are they miracles when non-mormons choose to pay for their church or mosque's work?

Ben: there are miracles in all religions

Me: But not miracles in the Biblical sense - big, noticeable, large-scale things like the sun stopping in the sky, or all the bodies in the graves of Jerusalem rising up as one
What happened to the big miracles?

(My son and I have a good natured debate on the merits of ice cream for breakfast. We compromise on an empty ice cream cone and some fruity oatmeal.)

Ben: i don't know
maybe we don't have enough faith
or there is no purpose for them at this time

Me: It just seems a shame to me that all the big miracles happened at a time when communication and science were so primitive that miracles couldn't be told to all instantly and obviously, the way such a thing could now
with 24 hour news cycles, advanced technology, science, and the internet
Did you read the article I sent?

Ben: i didn't get one

Me: Here it is (link)

Ben: ok
(Several minutes pass.)

Me: Let me know when you're done

Ben: im done
(Now my son wants to play Mr. Potato Head with me. I'm gonna have to wrap this up soon.)

Me: well how can you believe in prayer when there's not proof it works?
and no miracles?

Ben: God has answered my prayers many times

Me: People of all faiths claim that, but none can prove it
And they claim to worship different gods
(Dora the Explorer to the rescue - my son is well settled and may let me continue chatting.)

Ben: I guess you will never know for yourself until you exercise faith and pray for yourself

Me: Well I tried that for 20 some years and it was a bust. Besides, how do you explain "answered prayers" from people who don't pray to your god? Are there other gods capable of answering prayer?
It seems to me that if God wanted people to know he could work miracles, or answer prayer, he'd do it in an indisputable way, like back in the Bible

Ben: I think God still hears and answers their prayers
it isn't their fault, they have just been misguided.

Me: Even if they're praying to Vishnu or Shiva or Allah? I thought the 10 Commandments were pretty clear on the penalty for praying to false gods.

Me: How do you know you're not the one who's been misguided? (The question that eventually led to my non-belief. How do you know your god is the right one? Can X million Muslims really be wrong? What proof do I have?)

Ben: i guess we will find out in the next life

Me: If God answers prayers or people of all faiths, what is the benefit of being Mormon instead of something else? (I ask this same question of liberal Christian friends who think atheists/other faiths don't necessarily go to hell. It's awfully sweet of them, but not backed up by their doctrine or texts.)


(Loooong pause. Finally, I've found my "stump" question. Time to watch old Atheist Experience clips on YouTube!)

Ben: one for me is having the gift of the holy ghost to be constantly with me.

Me: What is that gift like in your daily life? (Technically, that's not a Mormon-specific "benefit".)

Ben: i find it serves as a source of inspiration, comfort, peace...

Me: Inspiration, comfort and peace are all fine things. People who aren't mormon or even christians or even religious experience those things
What is UNIQUE to Mormonism?

(Stepping away from the computer to deal with the smelliest diaper EVER. What did that boy eat?)

Ben: I guess the best thing for you is to experience it
come to an lds service, read the book of mormon, live all the commandments
and if you still have questions about miracles and blessings then we can talk
im not here to make a sales pitch to you. It sounds like you have already made up your mind on many issues, so the best thing for you is going to be practicing what we teach

Me: So you can't answer it
(By the time they're ready to get off the line anyway, I go whole hog and just push them.)

Ben: then you will know if it is true or not
i just did answer it.
it might not be the answer YOU are looking for

Me: There isn't any unique benefit you can come up with

Ben: but it is an answer.

Me: Okay, so the answer is "There is no reason to be Mormon instead of Muslim or atheist." Right?
So why are you Mormon, if there isn't anything special about it?
(Watched this video while waiting for his response.)

(I don't think he's coming back. This one has had more honest "I don't knows" than most.)
(I've also watched this video.)

Me: Ben?

(My personal trainer, aka, son, has put me through one mile on the treadmill, 150 reps of free weights, and squats - which are much harder, as he rides on my back while I do them. I'm pretty sure Ben ain't coming back.)

So what have I learned? Not much. This morning's chat was really just an excuse to dive back into the habit of religious dialogue. I did learn that Mormons believe we get physical bodies after we die, and that we are mortal now but will be immortal later. In protestant Christianity, I'd learned that we were immortal souls living in mortal bodies, and that once our bodies died we wouldn't need them anymore. If I'd stayed on topic I would have asked him if heaven was a physical place, and if hell was also. I don't know much at all yet about the LDS view of hell and think I'll probably cast that as my next conversation question. It's hard to keep myself on task, learning, when what I really want to do is get these kids to start asking questions of their own. You can't teach critical thinking in one single conversation, but I sure wish I could. Better, more thought out posts coming very soon.

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 5

This time I decided to approach the debate as a guy (since they won't talk to Angie anymore). Let's see if "Mike" can get further with this misogynist sect.

You are speaking live with Austin, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Austin: hello, how can I help you?

Me: Hi I've got a question about the devil.
Why did God make the devil?


Austin: what kind of question?
(We've got a slow reader, slow typer, or slow internet connection here.)

Me: Why did God make the devil?

Austin: we don't believe that He did
(WTF? I learn new things about mormons every time I do these chats.)

Me: I thought god created everything
Where did the devil come from?
(Pause during which I cleaned up maybe a quarter of my son's toys.)

Austin: the Bible calls the devil a "fallen angel"

Me: oh sure, of course not. but he made him when he was still an angel right?

Austin: we all have the ability to choose who/what kind of person, etc we will be

Me: Can god destroy the devil, now that he is fallen?

Austin: this part is harder for a lot of people to grasp, but we actually believe that if anything has the ability to think and reason for itself- then God did not create that reasoning part- He created a body to house that reasoning
(Huh??)

Me: So God just makes our bodies, not our brains and minds?

Austin: well.. technically our brains are part of our bodies- but our minds, right. The part that allows us to think for ourselves and make decisions and reason, etc. That part of us is eternal

Me: So our minds are eternal, but God didn't make them? Then where did they come from?
And did the devil's mind come from the same place?

Austin: God's goal, everything He does, is that we (our intelligence or whatever you wish to call it) can become more like He is and experience the joy that He does, etc.
we don't know

Me: well, this is all very interesting. but back to the devil - since he has chosen to be fallen, or whatever, why doesn't god just smite him?

Austin: and yes, the devil is included in that. Eternity is something that is hard, maybe impossible for us to grasp. In Eternity, I don't think there is any "come from"

Me: So nothing really made our minds, they just always existed?

Austin: God has a perfect plan, which is in place. it began long before He created the world and will continue until the final resurrection. Before then, everything that needs to happen will... everything will be worked out before the end.
As far as we know, yes

Me: but if god knows everything that will ever happen, why did he let the devil tempt Eve in teh garden and make mankind fall?

Austin: the fall is actually part of the plan

Me: It is?

Austin: God knows what will happen. He doesn't stop it, but He does make a way for us to overcome it.
The important principle is agency
(Free will alert! Free will alert!)

Me: Agency?

Austin: God won't stop us from making our own decisions- and suffering the consequences
but He gives us opportunities to learn about consequences before we make decisions

Me: and he won't stop the devil from making his own decisions and letting all of us suffer the consequences, right?

Austin: He gives us the Gospel, and the Holy Ghost so that we will know which decisions will bring happiness, and which won't
that's correct. Instead, He gives us tools to use so that we can avoid the traps of the devil

Me: But after the Fall we're all cursed. We don't live in the garden, men have to work and women suffer pain in childbirth, right?
Even though only Adam and Eve had agency in that, we all suffer the consequences.

Austin: we actually look on the fall as a necessary step in God's plan
(Then it's a STUPID plan!)

Me: but why couldn't he have just I don't know made the garden without the tree or without the devil? Then people would still have agency but we wouldn't suffer from disease and pain.

Austin: if they hadn't been banished from the Garden of Eden, we know that they wouldn't have been able to have children... and none of us would be able to get a body. A physical body and a mortal life are necessary steps to becoming more like God
we must endure pain sometimes so that we can learn to fully appreciate joy and happiness

Me: They couldn't have kids in the garden? But God made Adam out of dust and Eve out of his rib. So we could still have had physical bodies without leaving the Garden.
Some pain, sure, but not kids starving to death around the world. I don't see how that helps anyone appreciate joy and happiness.

Austin: may I share with you a passage of scripture that explains this principle of being free to choose?

Me: sure

Austin: link
That becomes the question, then.. how much suffering isenough? Luckily we don't hav eto understand that. We only have to learn to trust that God is in control and that things will work out. He gives peace to our souls if we trust and follow Him.
That is one part of the power of the Holy Ghost- to bring peace to our souls despite trials, etc.

Me: Well I read the article, but a lot of it is confusing to me

Austin: I understand

Me: Why did God design a system where mankind had to fall? Why couldn't he make people able to grow and have kids and learn and progress, but still stay safe and happy in the garden? why make things so that innocent children starve to death?

Austin: this part is hard at first for a lot of people, but as you study the plan as a whole- and continue to pray and ask God for His help in understanding, etc.- it will continue to make more sense

Me: well since it makes sense to you, maybe you can explain it to me? I thought God was all powerful. Shouldn't a wise, eternal, all-powerful god be able to make a better system than this one?

Austin: you have to remember that He didn't create the part of us that is 'us'-the unique core of us. His plan is the only/best way to take us from where we were before to where we can have the joy that God has.
If He could have, He would have
this must be the best possible system
(Must be because my god is a little god.)

Me: He's limited in his power?

Austin: He can do everything that can be done, but there must be Eternal laws that GOd is subject to (must like we are subject to the laws of physics). but these Eternal laws are things like justice, balance, etc.

Me: God is subject to Eternal laws? Well, did someone or something cause these laws to exist, or do they supersede God?

Austin: we don't know. It's back to the "Eternal" thing again

Me: well this is really interesting. I've never heard this idea of things being more eternal than God.
Is God more powerful than the devil?

Austin: nothing is MORE Eternal
either it's Eternal or it isn't
I don't think there can be degrees of Eternal

Me: okay good point :)
(This is probably my own Christian childhood. I was taught we had eternal souls, from the moment of conception moving forward, but not backward in time.)

Austin: but this is really turning into a more philosophical speculative conversation than what is actually the purpose of this site

Me: Oh well I just... I guess I don't understand why a loving god would let kids starve to death for some master plan. I have one kid and I'd never let him starve no mater what

Austin: there is a lot we cannot understand about God and the Eternal nature of things- but we do know is important
and that is outlined here on this website
I encourage you to continue to read through the outlines here

Me: Maybe I just love my son more than God loves us?
(I do.)

Austin: and we can clarify any questions you have about what you read
that's definitely not the case. God's love is perfect. (NOT!)But He does understand things better than we do

Me: I don't know, I think I understand suffering better than he must

Austin: at some level- and that level might be different for different people- we have to put our trust in God's hands

Me: I do everything in my limited power to stop it, he doesn't

Austin: and understand that as Isaiah and Proverbs teach us-His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, etc.

Me: Higher or just different? It seems like Higher would mean better, and better would be less kids starving to death

Austin: I would not underestimate what God understand=)
*understands

Me: Maybe if he cures all the disease in the world, or ends hunger I'll believe. I can't understand worshiping a god that lets innocent people hurt so much

Austin: hold on a moment
I have to go help some new missionaries
would you like to wait? or can I transfer you to another representative who can teach you what we believe about how to gain trust in God and His plan even if we don't understand it all?

Me: Either one would be great

Austin: ok, one moment
Has transferred you to: Kendall

You are speaking live with Kendall, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is provided for assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Kendall: Hey Mike give me a moment to read the conversation to ceath up

Me: Sure thing

Kendall: Alright Mike so if I understand correctly you have a qusetion still about why God lets us suffer?

Me: And why he won't just destroy the devil

Kendall: there is actually a scripture in The Book of Mormon that explains this perfectly
are you familiar with the Book of Mormon at all?

Me: no, not really

Kendall: The Book of Mormon is similar to the Bible meaning that it is another witness of Jesus Christ's life and minestry. However it was written by the people who lived in aincent America, in 6000 B.C.

Me: okay

Kendall: Just like the book of James or John in the Bible, the Book of Mormon has other books such as a section called the Book of Nephi
Nephi was a prophet who was taught by God and here is what he has to say about why we must suffer.
Link

Me: Okay - let me read this first
(Now my son wants pancakes, so the ultimate multi-tasking adventure begins)
it basically looks like it says that everything happens in balance? like there has to be evil for good to exist?

Kendall: that is exactly right
imagine never knowing pain, or sorrow
how could you then know joy and peace?

Me: well, actually I think so. Some people have pretty good lives all the way through, and they're happy. Other people have lives that are mixes of pain and happiness

Kendall: That is true, it always does seem like that on the surface. But I promise you that everyone goes through trials in their lives, they just might not be that visible to others. Do you remember the story of Job from the Bible?

Me: well okay but I'm not asking about minor troubles. I'm asking about kids starving to death.

Kendall. So why would God allow his children to die, if He loves them?

Me: yes, exactly. because I would do everything in my power to keep my son from starving or dying or suffering

Kendall: If I had a son, I would do the exact same thing. But if you were to solve every problem that your son has, then how could he learn?

Me: I'm not saying every problem. I'm saying those ones - starving, dying, and suffering. God is supposed to be more powerful than I am, but he lets people starve, die, and suffer. Why?

Kendall: Are you familiar with what happened to God's son Jesus Christ when he was on earth?

Me: yeah, and that's something else I don't get. Why kill his own son? He's the one who set up the system. Why not make a system that doesn't require a blood sacrifice?

Kendall: God created a plan so that we could return and live with Him, but this could only be possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

(Now my neighbor is here. She has a job interview so I'm watching her son for a little bit. While making debating mormons - and making pancakes. Why do I have the feeling this won't end well?)

Me: It seems like if I had been all powerful and all knowing, I'd come up with a different system. Heck, I'd do anything to avoid having my son tortured, beaten, and hung to death.

Kendall: I think for the most part we would all feel the same way. However before Christ left this life, He said to the God, "father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Even after Christ was tourtured, and spit upon, and forsaken by His own people
He still only cared about us

Me: I'm not questioning Christ's love for us. I'm questioning God's love for both Christ and us

Kendall: alright, and that is a doubt that most people have.

Me: How do you get beyond that doubt to trust him?
(Crap! Pancakes are burning. Time to take them off the stove.)

Kendall: So imagine knowing that your family is introuble, and the only way to help them is by sending your only son to them. But you know that he will suffer beyond comprehension, would you till send your son to them?
(Christian neighbor mom totally, unquestioningly answered the same. "NO!" It's a non-brainwashed thing.)

Me: No, because I'm his mother. He's an innocent and he depends on me.
*father
(At this point, I was sure I'd blown it. They MUST realize I'm actually female - right?)

Kendall: But why did God send his son, when Christ never sinned nor did anything wrong in his life knowing of all the things that will happen to His son?

Me: I don't know. It doesn't make sense to me. Why couldn't he just make us good, or forgive us? How does torturing someone (or letting him be tortured) make the rest of us less sinful?

Kendall: Because God cannot, nor will he control us. That was Lucifer's plan. The only possible reason is Love.

Me: LOVE?
Letting children starve to death is part of a plan for love? Having his own son brutally murdered is love?

Kendall: We might not understand right now, but we must first trust in God. There will always be doubts, the doubts never go away. It only becomes a probelm when the doubts overweigh the truth.

Me: How can you trust a God who allows so much wickedness as part of his plan? It just doesn't seem right to me to trust someone who has the power to stop evil, but won't do it.
Why won't god destroy the devil?

Kendall: Life would deffinetly be a lot easier, and because life would be so easy that we would not grow as much as we could if their was no trials.

Me: But maybe we wouldn't be so broken either. And kids who starve to death never have a chance to grow - they're dead. Why won't god destroy the devil? We could still grow and learn without him, and it would probably be easier to love each other and be good to one another if we weren't tempted to be wicked

Kendall: In the Bible Christ is always tell us to help the poor and the needy. Maybe it is not God but the people in the World who are letting the children starve.
(Capital "W" in World concerns me.)

Me: It's both. But people only have so much power - go is all powerful. Surely he could make more food or help crops grow better or something like that. That wouldn't even interfere with agency, it would just mean there was enough food for everybody, in all places. Can't he do that?

Kendall: Of course He could, but how could that help the world for the greater good? sure people would not be hungry or dieing, but how does that help the people who wont help, who wont donate to the needy, who wont asist the poor?

Me: Are you saying God cares more about the people who won't help than the people who are starving?

Kendall: not at all, but that that is where the bigger problem is
It is already in our power to help them
just that most people choose not to

Me: But if no one was starving, it wouldn't matter if some people weren't helping. Right now people aren't helping and so other, innocent people have to suffer. And God has the power to stop, but won't. How is that loving or just or balanced?
Do Mormons send food to starving people?

Kendall: Ofcourse we do, tons
the first sunday of every month we have something called fast sunday

Me: That's really good. I think it's important to help starving people. I just don't understand why God doesn't seem to think that it's as important as you Mormons do, or as I do. Can you explain this to me because it doesn't make sense to me?

Kendall: God does care, that is why He commands us to do it. Who better to take of the poor than their own brothers and sisters? We have all already been given so much by God that he expects us to be the one to help them.

(Boys! Quit hitting each other. One of you can bounce on the trampoline and one of you can play with the fire truck. DON'T throw the fire truck!)

Me: God would be better at it, because he could fix the problem all at once. He's all powerful. He can get into countries that have secured border, where humanitarian aid can't go. He could take care of the people he created (their bodies at least) better than we can because he isn't limited like we are

Kendall: That is why we must learn how to do it.

Me: We must learn how to do it, because God can but he won't?

Kendall: But through the people who are doing it, in a way, isn't God himself doing it

Me: No! The people are doing it. If God was doing it himself, it would be a big miracle, like turning 7 loaves of bread and 2 fish into enough to feed the crowds listening to Jesus speak. Why won't he do that with starving African children now?

Kendall: Link

Me: I think it's good and valuable that you help. I also like that the Jews, Chrsitians, Catholics and Muslims help. But why doesn't God just fix it?
And why won't he just destroy the devil?

Kendall: Our church is only 15.5 million to 6.75 billion people in the world, yet look at how much we have tried to help

Me: I think that's excellent. I just wish your god was as good to humanity as you are.
If he has the power to destroy the devil, why won't he do it?

Kendall: I can totally understand why this is such an important topic to you. And if it was just as important to you as it was to everyone else, then their would be no starvation in the world.
as for the Devil, he has no power over us. It is only when we allow him to
So why would God destroy him?

Me: Because he is evil. And evil should be eliminated, don't you think?

Kendall: He has given us all we need to over come the devil. The rest is up to us.

Me: It seems like God set us up so that most people would fail. How many people are there on earth, and how many will make it to heaven?

Kendall: He has already done his part to give us a way to make it to heaven. It is not Him, but ourselves that is keeping us from going to heaven.

But the way he gave us lets most people fall through the cracks

Kendall: It is because the people Chose to not follow God

Me: If God is all powerful and all knowing, why not make a system that fewer people fail at? If he loves us, but most of us don't make it to heaven, why doesn't he change the plan?

Kendall: The plan is perfect, does it not make sense as to why we fail?

Me: The plan where kids starve to death and his own son is a blood sacrifice is perfect? I don't agree

Kendall: But what happened to his son after his death?

Me: Well he went to hell for two days, but god sends his other children - us- to hell for eternity all the time. Which just doesn't seem loving at all to me
There's absolutely nothing my son could do that would make me torture him for even one second, much less forever

Kendall: He didn't go to hell, infact he is given everything that the father has

Me: but what about people god does send to hell. Aren't we all god's children?
(Neighbor-mom is back. Time to take the little ones outside for a minute.)

Kendall: Your questions are important to me, thanks for sharing, but I know that God's plan was perfect. He knew that His son had to suffer because he loves us. If Christ didn't pay for our sins, there would be no hope for us to even be with God.
Think about that, we sin and are so imperfect and God has provided a way for us to be clean and return to Him. Instead of criticizing his plan, we should be grateful that He has provided a way for us to return through His Son

Kendall: Has transferred you to Nathan

You are speaking live with Nathan, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Nathan: Hello, hang on a second... I have a few other people I am helping right now and I'll be with you in a minute...

Nathan: Has transferred you to Shawn

You are speaking live with Shawn, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Shawn: Hello?

Me: Hi Shawn?
(I've been outside for 15 minutes. Surely they've hung up on me.)

Shawn: Yes. How can I help you?
(Whoa! They'll stick around FOREVER if you're a MAN.)

Me: Hi Shawn. I just have one question. Why hasn't God destroyed the devil?

Shawn: Because he is necessary to our growth and learning. Our purpose on this earth is to learn to distinguish between good and evil. Choosing good leads to happiness, joy, and freedom. Choosing evil leads to captivity, and misery. There must be opposition.
There will always been good and evil because there will always be agency and opposition.

Me: Do you think it's possible to distinguish between good and evil without following the Mormon faith?

Shawn: Yes. All men have been given the Light of Christ - which is like a ingrown knowledge, or conciounce. However, when one repeatedely goes against that light and chooses to do wrong, that light dims and it is then harder to distinguish.

Me: Okay so if someone follows his moral center, and does what is right his whole life, will he go to heaven?

Shawn: Doing what is right all of your life is one necessity and step you must take, but it must be accompanied with certain ordinances. For none can enter the Kingdom of God save through faith in Christ, baptism, and repentance.
We believe in three different Kingdoms of Heaven - the Celestial (Highest), the Terrestrial, and the Telestial. All ordinances must be performed to enter the Celestial.

Me: So if someone is born in say Laos and he's a good man and kind and does what is right, but he never gets baptized or has faith in Christ - what happens to him?

Shawn: ALL men will be given the opportunity to accept Christ and be baptized. All will hear the Gospel and have the opportunity to accept Christ and the ordinances before they are Judged and placed into a Kingdom of God.

Me: Like, after they die but before they go to one of the levels of heaven or to hell?

Shawn: Yes. Exactly

Me: Well, that seems good. But then why bother to do missionary work here on earth?
If God will give everyone a chance later, maybe we should just concentrate on being good people and worry about heaven and hell after we die.

Shawn: Because this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God. That is the whole purpose of our time here. And we are the exact same after we die - we leave this world with the same knowledge, thoughts, beliefs.

Me: Wait, so we're exactly the same, then will people make different choices when they're given that last opportunity to hear the Gospel, or will they hold onto the beliefs they had on earth?
(Because otherwise, atheists are right. We can wait till we're dead to commit - the Mormon God is actually allowing for disbelief due to lack of evidence up UNTIL judgment!)

Shawn: They could do either. But their feelings they had while on earth are the same. Yet, just like hearts and attitudes can be changed here, they could be changed there as well. It is really up to the person.
(WTF? Better steer this conversation somewhere that isn't totally foreign to me.)

Me: But I still don't see why the devil is necessary for growth and learning. Good can exist without evil. Evil can exist without good.
If good depended on evil to BE good, then that would mean God depends on the devil to BE god. And that doesn't make sense to me at all.

Shawn: Could you ever know really what happiness is if you never experienced grief, pain and sorrow?
Could you know something was hot if you had never felt cold?
All things are relative to their opposition and the things around them.

Me: Yes, I think so. My son has had a very good life, and he is happy everyday.
He doesn't need to hurt to know what it feels like to not hurt. He doesn't need to starve to know that it feels good to have a healthy meal.

Shawn: Link
The highlighted verses should explain the concept

Me: Kendall sent the same verse. It says everything happens in balance, but I don't think that's true.

Shawn: If your son knew NOTHING except a good meal - did not even know there existed anything different - he could not comprehend what a bad meal was.

Me: Like I just said, my son doesn't need to feel starvation to know eating food is good. Our brains send us signals that we like food and so we eat it.
So what's the harm of not comprehending a bad meal?

Shawn: Well then he cannot be truly happy - maybe he feels he is happy, or balanced, but there is more happiness out there than he knows
Because then you cannot experience FULL happiness.
He is content, but he is not reaching the full possibility of joy, happiness and knowledge.

Me: Maybe the happiness that doesn't require suffering, starvation, pain, and death of innocent children across the world is a BETTER kind than the "full" happiness you're describing.

Shawn: Ignorance is bliss

Me: It makes no sense that you have to experience pain to be happy. You have to experience pain to be miserable, I'll grant you that.
Yes and bliss is another word for happy

Shawn: So if he only knew pain and suffering, then he should be content and blissful as well. What you are saying implies that they are opposite.
(No shit happiness and misery are opposites. Heck, Noggin cartoons establish that lesson daily before 9 a.m. Mormon = moron right about now.)

Me: NO! He'd be miserable. Pain and suffering cause misery. Safety, protection, and provision cause happiness.

Shawn: If we were all only ever sad and pained and so forth, then we would still be content
(Sheltered, brainwashed, CLUELESS Shawn.)

Me: No, we wouldn't be.
Because people who grow up in abusive homes, and don't know anything but sadness and pain, they are not content. They are miserable.

Shawn: They only cause misery because we know that we are miserable because we know we are not happy - because we know the difference.

Me: Parents who lose their children to AIDS and starvation in Africa, who only know pain and suffering, they are not happy. They are miserable.

Shawn: If there was not a difference, it would not matter what we experienced - it would be the same.
(Gee, if there was no difference rape would be as okay as not rape. Well duh! There IS a difference. The presence of lovemaking isn't what makes rape bad. Rape makes rape bad. Starvation is not what makes food good.)

Me: Shawn what you're saying makes no sense.
Pain = bad, not pain = good.

Shawn: Because they know of something different- they talk to people who are different, they see difference on tv, they know difference.

Me: You don't have to break one ankle to know that the other one is healthy

Shawn: They know difference thought because of this Light of Christ which is given to all men

Me: Why is knowing the difference more important than just being "content" in the Garden of Eden, or just going straight to heaven? Why make some people suffer unimaginable pain so that others can experience more joy and contentment?
That's not loving. That's God picking favorites. (Which He does in the Bible - chosen people and such.)

Shawn: You should pray about this, with real intent, truly wanting the answer, and you will get one. (AKA - I don't have an answer. Ask Magic Man.)

Me: Have you gotten one when you prayed about this?

Shawn: I know that God is our Father and he wants us to experience full joy. I know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I know that we are here for a purpose and that God has a plan for each of us. I know that God's plan is perfect.
Yes, I have. I know it as a fact. That is how real my answers have been.

Me: What do you know of starving children who die in the desert?
or kids who are beaten in foster homes?
How is that part of a perfect plan?

Shawn: God knows and loves them.

Me: Love means taking care of someone. Love means trying to stop needless suffering.

Shawn: We do not know all things God knows.

Me: I don't claim to know all things God knows. But I know that if *I* was all powerful, I'd put an end to starvation.

Shawn: Do you attend church now?

Me: What does that have to do with the continued existence of the devil, or God's ambivalence to human suffering?

Shawn: I know that God's plan is perfect. I have no doubt. I know that God knows all things and all things will be made right in the end.

Me: So it's okay for thousands of children to suffer and die for the "greater good" of God's plan?

Shawn: I don't know. I just know God loves His children.

Me: Love means not letting someone starve to death.
If God' plan is love, then it's seriously overrated.

Shawn: Part of his love is our agency. He cannot stop us from making choices.
(Here we go again with free will...)
If a father chooses to beat his child, that is his choice, and God respects agency.
(WTF? I seriously did not see this coming!)

Me: What child born in a 3rd world country, already infected with HIV, has agency?
God respects beating your kids?
If you knew a man was beating his children, would you try to stop him?

Shawn: This life is but a small part. We will live for eternity.

Me: If you saw your neighbor beat his child, would you try to stop him?

Shawn: I know all of this is true. I have prayed, I have felt greater joy than I have ever known. It is clear we have different beliefs. I respect yours. We are both rooted in our opinions. So this conversation must come to an end.

Me: If you say your neighbor beat his child, would you try to stop him? Just please answer that
My opinion is the moral one that does not try to excuse an unjust god.

Shawn: Have a nice day!

What have I learned? Shawn was by far the most brainwashed. "I know I'm right because I know I'm right because I know I'm right." Circular logic blows. Apparently Mormons are waaaaay more off from the Christianity I'm more familiar with than I'd realized. God didn't make our "selves" just our bodies? Seems like a god that didn't do that part shouldn't get to screw with us as much as he does, in that case. He should only have jurisdiction or guardianship over the physical self. And what's up with god being subject to "eternal laws"? That's different. Of course, all religions are weird and only the one you grew up with seems semi-normal. But still, there was a lot more Scientology similarities than I'd expected. And most important of all: Mormons will spend literally 2 hours talking to a man, trying to persuade him, but will log off lickety-split from a woman who disagrees.

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