God's Will vs. Your Plans

Hey everyone, I'm back in action in Denver, with my first Mountain Time counter-apologetic. From JustBetweenUs.org, yet another Christian womens magazine, we've got an article on "God's Will vs. Your Plans." (I love how their sales pitch for buying a friends subscription says, "Give the gift of encouragement." The audicity of Christian vendors who promise spiritual gifts in the form of merchandise brings to mind the money changers Jesus was so peeved at.) This particular article appears to have been written by a man, unless Stuart Briscoe is an unfortunately named woman.

Stuff happens. We all know that. Sometimes it’s good, other times it’s horrible. When it’s good we don’t spend too much time analyzing it – we just enjoy it! But when it’s bad we ask questions, we want answers. “Why did this happen?” Or more likely, “Why did this happen to me?”

We've come across this assumption in apologetics before - the idea that we are only aware of or concerned with our own pain. Speaking for myself (the only person I can freely & with some accuracy speak for) this simply isn't true. For as long as I can remember, I have ached for those who are homeless or overcome with illness (mental or physical) or for those who do not have enough food. There has never been a time in my life when I was not concerned about the fate of others - not just my own friends and family, but also relative and complete strangers. It does not take a tragedy in my own life for me to be aware that life is often unfair.

If we’re of a philosophical frame of mind, “Why do bad things happen to good people?” Some people shrug their shoulders and say, “Stuff happens and that’s all there is to it.” Others say, “You make your own life; you’re responsible for your own happenings.”

Others sound like victim-blaming jerks, don't they? When people take the "bootstrap" approach to life (the idea that, given sufficient effort, will, and determination, anyone can work their way to success) I believe they do it out of ignorance, and unnoticed privelige. I am white and live in the United States. There are certain things which are automatically granted to me - a certain degree of intelligence is assumed by professors, before I've opened my mouth. (In contrast, friends of color have told me they are often intially treated as less able than their white peers, until they have demonstrated otherwise.) I am a woman in America - there are certain automatic privileges I am not given because of this. I will likely make less money than men in the same field of work, at the same ability level. I will be villainized for enjoying sex, for speaking my mind, and for having opinions not in line with the majority. But all these *are* "bootstrap" situations to some degree. But when we look at people born into poverty, born HIV infected, born with no work available, no education, no proper medicine - we have a very different situation indeed. Some odds cannot be overcome. When we tell people their lives are of their own making, we ignore everything that impacts and informs their lives.

And then there are those who say “everything is determined.” Some say environment and genes are the determining factors while others say “God is sovereign and He dictates what happens.”

I'm not sure anyone says genes and environment "determine" things to the extent many Christians believe their god does. My genes and environment led to my mental illnesses. But how I respond to them has been affected by my choices - you know, that free will stuff Christians are so fond of. Yes, I think the kinds of choices, my ability for decision making, and my thought processes were all impacted by my genes and craptastic childhood environment. I often wonder who I could have been had I been born into a different family - not in a cult, maybe just mainstream Christian, or even in an atheist home. Who would I be? Whoever that theoretical person might be, I don't believe she'd be me in any important sense of the word. I don't believe in destiny.

It seems to me that the Bible is clear that God is in charge. If He isn’t, He isn’t God! But there is lots of biblical evidence that people are responsible for their actions, too. So I believe that God has chosen sovereignly to give us choice and related responsibility. Ultimately He is in control; but within the context of that control, He has granted us freedom to act. He is sovereign, we are responsible.

Wow, God's got a great set up - for him. Imagine getting to be the boss - be in control and sovereign over everything - but not having to take responsibility. Where do I sign up for that deal? On a pertinent note, Briscoe has stated clearly where he falls on the problem of evil (God won't fix it, rather than can't.) Clearly his god is an able one, and one who reigns supreme. However, Briscoe still tries to lay the blame on humanity. We'll see in the following to what lengths he'll go to maintain that an all-powerful, totally in control deity bears no responbility for the consequences of his actions and inactions.

But more. The environment in which He has chosen we should live is less than perfect. It is “fallen” and we are not exempt from its ills and its woes. So stuff happens in our lives under the sovereign control of the Lord who has intentionally given us free will and placed us in a difficult and dangerous environment.

Okay, so our author agrees that his god knowingly chose for us to live in a flawed or "fallen" environment, where natural disasters, disease, and human suffering are sure to follow. He's sovereign, yet we're responsible? Free will obviously plays no part in our environment, if God has willed it so. It's clearly his will, not ours. (Seriously, would you choose this world among all possible worlds, if you were really given such a choice? I think I'd pick a world without crib death and starvation, personally.)

Things come our way sometimes because we made them come our way.

Let's blame the victim! Christianity's favorite gameshow, fun for the whole family!

Sometimes they happen because of the fallen circumstances in which we live and from which we are made.

God's will, in other words.

Other times they happen because of the actions of others, but always under the ultimate oversight of God who rules in the affairs of men and women. God’s will rules!

So again, how are we responsible?

When Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane contemplating His imminent crucifixion, He asked if there was another way He could accomplish His mission, but then immediately told the Father, “Not My will, but Thine be done.” There was, in that moment, the most remarkable acceptance of the divine will in human history.

I've always wondered how it was that Jesus and God the Father could have such different wills at that moment. Aren't God and Jesus one in the same? And for that matter, if Jesus is divine, how on earth is his moment of self-sacrifice credited to human history? Either he's god (in which case, shouldn't he have the same will?) or he's human, and is therefore not god. You really can't have it both ways, Christians. The Trinity makes no sense, and this is just one passage that suggests why.

And it was not going to be pleasant. Jesus was willingly agreeing with the Father that His will was, as Paul would later say, “Good, acceptable and perfect” (Rom. 12: 2). But it was a most horrendous will, a most excruciating plan.

Horrendous and excrutiating sound about right, but how can you recognize that while simultaneously calling it "good, acceptable, and perfect?" The idea that the Biblical god is the most loving father figure ever imagined or described is positively sickening. I grew up without my dad, and was adamant in not wanting my mother to remarry. We worshiped the god, mind you, who "tests" Abraham by asking him to slaughter his only child, the same god who supposedly sent his own son to be tortured and executed, the same god who flooded the whole earth, killing untold numbers of humans and animals because he got pissed off. Is it any wonder, when the primary image of a father I held was Yawhew, that I so strongly did not want one?

The question that then comes to mind is, “How can something so horrendous be good, acceptable and perfect?” This is not simply a theoretical question. Millions of believers have been faced with a similar one as they have confronted the difficult dimensions of life at the same time they were trying desperately to hold on to the belief that God’s will is best.

Well yes that question did come to mind, but for a different reason than the one supposed. I wondered at the logical consistency of god having a different will from himself.

When a young husband dies leaving a widow and three small children, how can that be part of a good, acceptable and perfect will? When a young couple desperately anxious to have children encounter infertility, how do they fit that into a good divine plan?

I was so upset when my godmother died. How could God be so selfish? She did so much for this world, and for all the people around her. How would her husband, her kids, and her grandkids (not to mention the rest of the community) be better off without her? She passed away four years ago, and I miss her still, but at least now I don't have to worship the being I believed was also responsible for subjecting her to three rounds of breast cancer, surgery, and chemotherapy.

Perhaps the only way we can hold firmly to a good will and confront unpleasant issues is to recognize that the only person who can ultimately determine the “goodness” or the “badness” of something is the person who has all the facts at his or her disposal. And none of us has that capability.

What he is essentially saying is that we have no basis from which to make value judgments, and that is absolute bollocks. Most of us, whether believers or nonbelievers, judge something which causes unnecessary suffering as being less desired than something which does not, all other points being equal. I realize this is a very simplistic way of stating basic morality, but we can and do make value judgments all day long. The idea that we shouldn't make such judgments is inherent to Christianity; after all, Adam and Eve were rousted from the garden for just learning right from wrong. Apparently Briscoe's god would rather we just blindly obey than analyze a situation ethically and rationally. "Don't question the leader," he tells us, in subtler prose.

There are certain things to which God has introduced us, and there are others that are hidden in the inscrutable depths of His divine plan. As Moses said, “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever” (Deut. 29:29).

Is this why so many faithful feel threatened by science's continued encroachment on the mysterious? These things should be left to god?

We don’t know all He knows. We will never know this side of eternity what He doesn’t reveal; but we do know what He has told us, and we must tenaciously hold on to that.

I wonder if our author's tenancious hold on what "He has told us" means that Briscoe has never gotten a haircut, or eaten at Red Lobster. Somehow, I am skeptical (and not just because the Cheddar Bay biscuits are buttery yummy goodness.)

So suppose we can arrive at that position, how do we handle life’s unpleasantnesses or worse? Let me make a few suggestions:

Wait, the position that "sometimes things happen" or "life isn't fair?" Easy - become a nihilist, or a realist, or an atheist. (Note, only nihilism and Christianity require accepting things as they are without seeking to change them. Humanitarians know about the crises in our world, yet they don't accept that things must always be as they are.

1. Recognize that there is nothing fundamentally surprising about being exposed to bad things. Jesus was, and He warned His disciples they would be, too. He intentionally left us in a world that had rejected Him and He warned that we would be treated no differently.

And isn't that a strange thing for an all-knowing, all-powerful god to do? A warning seems like a rather paltry help from a god who's supposed to be in charge of absolutely everything.

Peter certainly got the message and later wrote, “Do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you” (1 Pet. 4:12). This is what life in this sad world is like – even for believers!

Well, I can agree that this is what the world is like, right now. But I don't buy into any sort of fatalism that the world will always be like this, or must. Furthermore, the kinds of trials and sufferings I might face are drastically different from what another person will. Being a teenaged American girl with anorexia is not the same as being a malnourished starving child in a third world country. We are not all created equal, nor are we born into equal conditions.

2. Remember that what God permits in your life will never outstrip the grace He makes available to enable you to live well in it. He doesn’t promise escape from difficulties, but He does guarantee grace to live well in them.

You wanna tell that to my friend whose two baby girls were born with rare, incurable forms of brain cancer?

Paul told the Corinthians, “God is faithful: He will not let you be tempted (or tested) beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide a way out so you can stand up under it” (1 Cor. 10:13).

Gee, well it's nice to know every Christian drug addict out there hasn't been given more than they can handle! Too bad there's no evidence of such a thing, but it is awfully nice to just sit back and wait for people to bootstrap themselves (with the aid of God, of course) out of their troubles. I mean, who needs charity when God doesn't give people more than they can handle on their own?

3. Reflect on the way that difficulties and stresses are often the means to development and growth.

Oooh, we're getting to one of my least favorite Christian Excuses for God's Negligence ever!

In the same way that an athlete is conditioned for better performance through carefully monitored training, so the believer is granted the chance to mature through the difficult dimensions of the divine will. Paul wrote, “we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope” (Rom. 5:4).

First of all, Yoda has a better illogical run than Paul, and that was in Episode One which *sucked*. Second, I wonder what on earth was the maturation and training my son received by having severe infant GERD (an incredibly painful recurrance of heartburn and difficulty digesting food) that left scars in his esophagous by the time he was 3 months old. How exactly was that a good thing for my son to go through? It brought him intense pain and did harm to his infant body, yet he experienced that as an infant, long before he could hold onto the memory or gain any kind of insight or benefit from that pain. Also, the twisted idea that suffering leads to hope is founded on ridiculous logic. Hope is found in the alleviation of suffering, in joy, in happiness, in love, in a beautiful sunrise at the start of a new day. Watching someone you love suffer does not bring hope, but it brings sadness and pain and often a feeling of impotence. Tell me, does your god find hope in watching all this suffering, despite his omnipotence?

The reason it really pisses me off, though, is because it lets god off the hook. Not only that, but it gives him credit for human achievements of will. How dare a Christian tell me my pain was all part of some god's plan, and that my own tenacity and refusal to be a victim is somehow evidence of HIS hand in my life? Whether your god exists or not, he did nothing to save me from the mental, emotional, sexual, and physical abuse I suffered at the hands of Christian folk for decades. He does not get credit for my survival; I do.

4. Refuse to be intimidated by the forces that oppose you in your life, and recognize that the way you conduct yourself in the hard times is evidence of God being truly at work in your life.

No! How you conduct yourself is evidence of YOU - your own actions, decisions, choices, stress techniques, addictions, predilictions, and ideas. I will hold my head up high in the face of adversity because of who I am, whether your god exists or not. He plays no role in my life.

It is also a reminder to those who may be the cause of your difficulties that they will not escape the consequences of their actions. Paul told the Philippians in no uncertain terms not to be “frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved – and that by God” (Phil. 1: 28).

Fright is a perfectly natural human response. The labeling of some emotions or impulses as black-and-white BAD is not helpful. I was forbidden to be afraid as a child; this didn't stop the fear, although it did make it impossible for me to work through my scared feelings with a reasonable, loving adult who could accept my full range of human emotions. And this isn't really helpful for the kinds of suffering and pain caused by natural disasters or disease. You know, the stuff God is totally in control of.

5. Resist the temptation to resent the hard edges of God’s will by acknowledging the fact that people “suffer according to God’s will” (1 Pet. 4:19) as surely as they are blessed by His gracious provision.

Don't resent it, because He doesn't want you to? The fact that it's all part of God's plan does not automatically yield that it would be a good plan, or one that would not be deserving of resentment.

In fact, in some way that is almost too difficult for us to grasp, if we are to know “the power of His resurrection” in our lives, it will be related to our experience of “the fellowship of sharing in His sufferings” (Phil. 3:10).

Ah yes, "the last shall be first" and all that. See, it's okay if children starve to death, or baby girls are raped by HIV positive men in sub-Saharran Africa, because (as long as our missionaries convert them during their short, ill lives filled with suffering and pain) they'll get the biggest mansions in heaven! (/sarcasm)

The Christians who lived in the difficult early days of the church grasped this perhaps better than modern-day Christians in the western world. They actually rejoiced after they were publicly flogged because they “had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name” (Acts 5:41).

And how many Muslim suicide-bombers have shouted, "Allah u'akbar!" (Allah is great!) moments before detonating themselves and all the people around them? Conviction of faith does not say anything of truth claims. Whether or not some early Christians got off on martyrdom has nothing to do with God's inaction in the face of natural disasters, rape, genocide, and all manner of human suffering.

When Jesus said in the Garden, “Not My will, but Thine be done,” He was not entering into a passive mode of resignation to inevitable circumstances. He was actively consenting to glad participation in the divine will.

I don't remember picking up "glad" in any of my readings of the Passion. Regardless, Jesus accepting the will of his father (who is himself) says nothing about whether or not God's plans are good.

We need to be careful at this point. For sometimes when we are exhorted, as in this article, to look positively at the difficult aspects of the divine will, we settle into an attitude rather like that of a rebellious teenager who chafes under parental discipline, and can’t do anything about it except project a constant attitude of disapproval of what she has to endure, and plays this one possibility to the hilt – technically submitting to the parental will, but realistically living in open, although muted, resistance to it and resentment of it.

Well it sounds like someone doesn't like teenagers a whole lot. I actively tell my son (who is a preschooler, and so falling into an earlier stage of separation from mommy's will) "You don't have to be happy about X" (going home from the playground, bathtime, whatever) "but you do have to hold mommy's hand and do this." I leave his emotions his own, and do not punish him for them. He is allowed to be angry, resentful, or disappointed in me. And because he has that freedom, when he does experience those emotions, he can tell me. We can talk about it, and work through it, and then he can begin to feel better. Just saying, "Don't resent pain you experience" denies someone the opportunity to work through that resentment, and reach something healthy beyond it. Short-circuitry in emotional health rarely yields the best results.

So try this. Next time God’s will and yours don’t see eye to eye, and before you get horribly bent out of shape, remind yourself that you don’t know all the circumstances so you can’t make a definitive assessment of the situation as to whether it is ultimately good or bad.

This is such bad advice. This is saying, "Don't fight the tide of your life." Don't get out of that abusive marriage; don't move so you can put your kids in a better school; don't look for the better job, certainly not after several unsuccessful interviews! It removes the impetus for human action; it is the opposite of the bootstrap. Try nothing, and call it God's will.

Then remember that God claims His will is “good, acceptable and perfect.” Give Him the benefit of the doubt and concentrate on the positive things that you know can come out of glad acceptance of His plan.

There are undoubtedly benefits to focusing on the positive aspects of life in tough situations; I do a lot of it. I suffer from depression and PTSD, as well as a few other mental illnesses. It's not a lot of fun, but I definitely try to make the most of it. That doesn't mean that it's better for me to have 5 mental illnesses than not. I think I'd personally prefer not to have these, as well as the assorted symptoms they carry. (Do night terrors sound like fun to you?) And as for giving God "the benefit of the doubt" it's really the benefit of belief Briscoe is specially pleading for. "Just trust that God is good and that everything will be okay." It is a lie, and I happen to believe that the vast majority of the time, the truth is preferable to a lie.

You may be surprised at the way life becomes less of a struggle and God’s will becomes less of a problem.

"Don't fight it, baby," said the rapist? I cannot see how the Christian god varies from such a beast in his totalitarian control and assumption of rights to everyone else's bodies and wills.

Why are all apologists so horribly victim-blaming? Because if they cannot blame us for our own suffering, they would have to blame their god, and they cannot do that. At least this one didn't spend all his time on Satan.

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Planned Parenthood: Charity of the Month

I'm sure all my regular readers are by now aware that I grew up in a faith healing cult led by my grandmother, Carol Balizet. I was born at home, never went to the pediatrician, and never received vaccinations as a child (though I'm catching up on them now.) But when I was a teenager, and sexually active, Planned Parenthood was there for me. My parents chose to deprive me of medical care, but thanks to Planned Parenthood's Teen Clinic program, I was able to get free annual PAP smears, comprehensive and confidential STD testing, and birth control. When I was 17 and had a miscarriage, they helped me deal with it, physically and emotionally. Last year I went back to get the 12-year non-hormonal IUD (because pregnancy is no fun.)

For many low-income women, Planned Parenthood may be the only access to healthcare they have, and their distribution of low-cost and free birth control has undoubtedly helped to reduce the number of children born into poverty here in the United States. They are fierce advocates of abortion rights and access, and work to combat attacks on womens reproductive rights. They fight for comprehensive sex education in schools, and also often offer sex education classes at their clinics. (I fully intend on taking Little Man to Planned Parenthood for one of these classes when he reaches puberty.) Planned Parenthood fights for global access to reproductive health and choice for women around the world.

Especially for my male readers, who may not be as familiar with the great work Planned Parenthood does, you can learn more on their Issues page. To get involved with political action in the interests of womens health and reproductive freedoms, you can go here. Currently they are working on keeping the abortion rights ban out of the universal healthcare bill. You can also donate to Planned Parenthood online or by phone.

You can sign the petition to tell Pres. Obama and others you want abortion and reproductive health needs to be covered under health reform here. If you're unable to donate your money (like me! Poverty's no fun), please consider donating your time and your physical size. Men, especially, can help by being escorts at either Planned Parenthood or other abortion facilities. This is one of the most compassionate things you can do to protect the rights and health of women, as well as pissing off the fundamentalist Christians and Catholics. :)

After all, when we don't stop those who would take away reproductive choice, this is what they do to our sex education:

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One Laptop Per Child

I've been wanting to add a couple new features to ATAT. I'm a big believer in forming an atheist community, not just outlets for intellectual expression, but also for forming friendships and establishing some of the social context for discussing all kids of issues, not just those about the first amendment, or biology, or Mormons, or his noodly appendage.

One of the most positive benefits I experienced from church community* was the share sense of responsibility for mankind. This was in the post-cult, Vineyard and Episcopalian years, but even as a young girl I enjoyed picking which charity I wanted to give my weekly ten cent tithe to. So I've been thinking a lot about how we could incorporate some of those same conversations about giving an charity and the good work we contribute to - with our finances, time, or energy - and kind of remind the world that we care, too. Not having any gods hasn't stopped us from caring about others; many of us who used to believe feel a more pressing need to take care of the most vulnerable on our planet, since we no longer think their struggles or suffering will all be made right in an afterlife.

November is breast cancer awareness month, and I lost my godmother - the most kind and affectionate maternal figure I had - to breast cancer April 19, 2007 and it still hurts. But I'm seeing myself more and more as someone who champions children's rights and children's causes So, while I'm sure the folks at the Susan G. Koman Foundation would be glad of a donation, this month I've decided to feature One Laptop Per Child.

The mission of One Laptop per Child (OLPC) is to empower the children of developing countries to learn by providing one connected laptop to every school-age child. In order to accomplish our goal, we need people who believe in what we’re doing and want to help make education for the world’s children a priority, not a privilege.

OLPC’s mission is to provide a means for learning, self-expression, and exploration to the nearly two billion children of the developing world with little or no access to education. While children are by nature eager for knowledge, many countries have insufficient resources to devote to education—sometimes less than $20 per year per child (compared to an average of $7,500 in the United States). By giving children their very own connected XO laptop, we are giving them a window to the outside world, access to vast amounts of information, a way to connect with each other, and a springboard into their future. And we’re also helping these countries develop an essential resource—educated, empowered children.

The internet led me to atheism. Google helped me discover my grandmother was a cult leader. The pro-anorexia movement, for all its faults, kept me alive and somewhat sane during the darkest years of my life. We all know how empowering the internet can be, and how much someone with little money can learn - and how connected they can be with other ideas and other people - if they have access to the free information and communication on the web.

For everyone who wished you could donate to the Atheist Association of Uganda, here is one way you can help children in Uganda and other parts of the world, living amidst superstition, war, and ignorance. If you have the funds and would like to support this charity, you can go here to donate to One Laptop per Child. For $199 US you can buy a laptop for a child in th developing world (which used to called third-world.) If you'd like to promote this charity yourself, I'd greatly appreciate it. I think this is a wonderful secular charity with goals we can all get behind.


*I said it was a positive aspect of the community, not the religion so don't get all excited, theist readers :)

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Thank you for Donating

Thanks to all my readers (anteaters? still waiting on nickname submissions) who have contributed to ATAT. Because of your generosity, I'm able to spare the $7.50 to get a cab to take my son to school this morning, which means I'll be able to write ATAT posts once I get back. (There is no writing when the Little Man is home, or at least nothing constructive.)

He was seriously about to cry he was so heartbroken at the idea of missing school, and frankly I need him to go so his teacher can answer my question on the teacher/parent form about whether to send him to school in his costume tomorrow, or to just put it in his backpack for the Costume Parade later in the day. Hooray! And again, thanks. :)

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Christian Women Today

Two years ago I was a Christian woman. Kind of funny to think about, really. I can't in any way imagine going back to that, but it is fun to look at, as this sort of "alternate road" I could have taken (or could have stayed on). I can't know with any certainty who I would be now if I hadn't had my son, or hadn't been raised in a cult. But since that fork in the road was so recent, I can say with better evidence who I might have been if I hadn't stumbled across GodisImaginary.com. And hey, backseat non-activist atheists, I have a bone to pick with you: Once my faith was seriously challenged, with good arguments, it fell apart within minutes. Christians are annoying you? Go deconvert them and stop your whining, lol.

The very real human compassion and desire for justice that have always been a part of me (and I think are the core of my "pre-cult identity") had always been bothered by disability and disease and death and war and famine and starvation. I remember seeing a commercial to sponsor a child when I was about six. I went back to my room, grabbed my quilt, and brought it to Giggy. "Here, I wanna give this to the kid that doesn't have a blanket on the TV." If you atheists had shown me sooner the error of my ways, I might have wasted less time on belief (and might be farther in my book, dammit). So in other words, go ye forth unto all chat rooms and proclaim "God is imaginary, and the Bible is evil." It's fun. :)

So I stumbled my way on over to ChristianWomenToday.com where apparently Christian woman means blond. (Seriously, there are five blonds and one Caucasian brunette on this page. Can't you feel the acceptance?) I then clicked and stumbled my way to "If God is in Control, Why..." hoping that they might address the problem of pain, which is a very significant problem for those who believe in an involved and all-loving god.

What do you do when the roof falls in? I hate failure and disappointment. Why does God allow these things to happen to me if He’s really in control?

Oh, of course we're not dealing with HIV in Africa. This is about personal "failure and disappointment". This is "why me" whining. How utterly self-centered and boring.

God often allows failure to point us to one critical truth…we can’t live the Christian life on our own. Throughout our lives, there will be times when God will place us in situations that will cause us to realize our insufficiency and make us depend on Him. Only Jesus has lived perfectly the Christian life and if anything of eternal value is going to be accomplished through my life, He is going to have to do it!

Well then God's a conceited prick, now isn't He? He allows bad things into our lives to prove a point, that he created us dependent? That's not a good god, and that's not a good parent. (Parenting is the only job in the world where you spend your entire time training your replacement. "Children of God" never grow up and move out on their own.) And let's just put to bed the notion that Jesus led a sinless life.



Now consider for a moment the sentence, "if anything of eternal value is going to be accomplished" it won't be by me? Wow. I guess I should stop trying to do things of value, and just wait for God to do them through me. Or, I'll continue doing things of value, but give him the credit because Jesus likes ego stroking.

2 Cor. 4:17,18 says, “For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So, we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.”

"Light and momentary troubles" is a really effective way of writing off the pain and suffering of millions, isn't it? "Don't worry, they'll be taken care of later." It's anti-humanist and I don't like it. And, because literalist interpretations are fun, try to join me in the mental picture of a bunch of Christians fixing their eyes on the invisible. You got it? They'd look like a bunch of right idiots, wouldn't they? Oh wait, they already do...

Earlier in this book (1:8) Paul says, “we were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired even of life.” When Paul speaks of “light and momentary troubles”, we know that actually his trouble was severe, BUT in comparison to what was being gained and accomplished in his life and ministry – it was insignificant. In fact, he says, it “far outweighs them all.” What a perspective! How do I get it?

Why would you want that perspective? Personally, rather than brushing off my pain (and the pain of others) as insignificant, I'd like to do something to mitigate it and prevent it. Actually, that's what this blog is all about, and the book I'm writing, and the way I raise my son. I want to prevent unnecessary pain. I want people to break out of their self-defeating religious mindsets; I want children to have legal protection from religious abuse and medical neglect; and I want my son to form his own identity in childhood, instead of having to piece one together in his mid-20s. But the Christian perspective being lauded and desired here is one that dampens the human impulse to help others. It removes the immediacy and urgency that the sound of a child's cry stirs in his mother, or that the sight of a malnourished child stirs in all of us. It suggests that even if we don't help that person, it'll be made right, and it excuses us from being the ones to help. It's shameful, and it's not "thinking". It's self-indoctrination.

Recognizing that God has allowed or placed me in the situations I’m in to add to my character something of eternal value is the first step to dealing positively with failure or disappointment. I need to believe that this particular situation is His special way of performing His refining work in my character and accomplishing in me that which will far outlast what is presently disappointing me. He is using this situation to teach me how to walk by faith and to equip me to make eternal investments in the lives of others. Romans 8:29 clearly states that every situation has the effect of molding us into Christ’s image and ICor. 1:4 explains how our ministry is made more effective by experiencing trouble! Circumstances are not out of control but are used for our good in the hands of a loving God!

Tell yourself that bad things are good for you and try not to think too hard. "I need to believe" (because thinking is hard!) The paragraph above really only works if the troubles you're thinking of are minor and personal - tight finances, a difficult patch in life - and not if they're lifelong or severe or massive. The Holocaust, for example, makes me seriously question the statement that "Circumstances are not out of control but are used for our good in the hands of a loving God." What can I say? 12 million dead just doesn't compute when you're adding "loving god" and "in control" to the other side of the equation. And while it may comfort her, I think the idea that a woman I know (whose mother began "turning tricks" with her when she was just 10) is going to have everything be okay in heaven still doesn't justify what she believes God allowed in her life.

And if "every situation has the effect of molding us into Christ's image" why aren't we all Jewish carpenters who violate the 5th commandment regularly? And does that "every situation" include each time I post blasphemy on ATAT? Is that "molding" me into Christ's image? Am I becoming more Christ-like with every flush?

We become bitter to the degree we don’t give thanks to God. Purpose to focus on what He has given rather than what is gone. Choose with your will, not your feelings, to form a habit of giving thanks often remembering that He is in control and is working in your life to produce that which is precious and which will not fade away but will last for eternity.

Hmmm. Well, on the one hand I do know that there is a lot to be said for gratitude and optimism. I'm an optimist. I choose to hope for the best, and prepare for the most likely (not actually the worst. Survivalism is a lot of work.) I'm "thankful" that I have the life I do. I'd like a few things to be better (income) but it's a good life. Now, I'm not gonna thank God for that, because he's imaginary and played no part.

But even if he was real, then that just means he watched while my son and I were homeless living in a station wagon. He watched when I was molested. He watched when I married my ex-husband, and didn't see fit to give me a personal revelation on what a bad idea that was. So, you know, "thankfulness" isn't the first attitude that comes to mind. But let me be clear, I'm not bitter. I grew up in hell on earth, and now I'm free. I'm thrilled. I don't think I could laugh about this as much as I do if I was bitter.

And I must say, it's easier to not be bitter when you have a roof, electricity (maybe even A/C), plumbing, and food. Millions of women don't have these basic necessities, much less the make up, clothes, books, and furniture I bought at a time when my income was better. Are the young Christian virgin girls raped by HIV-infected men in Africa not Christian women today? The "light and momentary troubles" of Paul sort of pale in comparison to living your life with a terminal immune deficiency and very little of the basic necessities like food and clean water.

I'm just really annoyed today at the vacuousness of modern evangelical Christians. They just don't seem to give a shit if poor brown people halfway around the globe are starving, or if poor white and brown people right here in the US are dying for lack of medical coverage. What happened to feed the hungry and clothe the poor, man? The best plug Christians have for "something good" that comes out of religion is charity, and is it just me, or does Christian charity seem to have dried up since the economy tanked? "Oh, your mortgage payments went up? Well, then don't worry about those starving kids. Surely God has a special and unique plan for your purpose-driven middle-class American life!"

Bah. I'm in a crummier mood after reading this than I expected. I think I've always been a liberal, and Christianity hijacked that impulse to help. What I credited to "God's love shining through me" was really me shining through the cult personality I'd been assigned.

Christians, please redeem your reputation. Please donate to one of the charities on the right. ICSA helps people get out of cults, and RAINN and Silent Lambs both help rape victims. Or are these "light and momentary troubles" that you shouldn't concern yourself with, because after all, rape victims get mansions in heaven?

Maybe I should get off the problem of pain for a while... I've made myself ill-tempered. I'll see if Dr. Demento can't lighten the mood, and go get myself out of this funk before my next post.



Lol, that totally worked :) "Gazebo!"

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ATAT Housekeeping

Hello, readers. I've been doing a bit of housekeeping on the blog. Since Little Man is back in school, I've discontinued (for now) the Sunday Schools posts of recommended readings and cool blogs. Instead I'm sharing things on my Facebook, via Twitter (@antitheistangie), and through my Google Reader (streamed below in the box titled "Recommended Reading".)

I've added a new petition for HR 911. Feel free to share the link: http://tinyurl.com/senate911 and ask others to sign.

I've also added a Donate button. Yeah, it's not very classy but since the unemployment office has decided to be ten freaking weeks late with my deposit (and my landlord's not too happy with me, and my phone's gonna get shut off in three days...) I figured it was time to swallow my pride and go the Christian missionary route, and start begging for cash. (Sorry.)

I've also added new links in the side bar of ATAT Favorites, including the site for the International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA) and the humorous photo blog People of Wal-Mart.

There is a survey off to the side, but I'm having trouble logging in (read: remembering *either* of my passwords) so I'm disabling it until I can get in to view the results.

That's all for now. I'll try to post something entertaining later on today.

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Daily Dose of Health Care

Ahem, it's come to my attention that spelling it "healthcare" is incorrect. So, from now on I'll type it correctly, but I am definitely not editing my old posts for something so minor.

On to the medicine. I spent a whopping five minutes out of my day calling both my Senators and letting them know I support a public option on health care. I also told the receptionist for one senator of my own experience without health care and said, "We need a public option." She said, "Yes ma'am. I'll be sure to let the Senator know."

Maybe that "Yes" was just a conversational sign of sympathy for my situation or maybe it was an indication that my Mel Martinez is gonna do the right thing on this one. I don't know. But it took less than five minutes and it goes in the "Yes" column that every Senate office keeps of how their constituents feel.

Go here to find contact information for your Representatives and Senators. Right now the health care reform bill is having the biggest challenge in the Senate. I never promised not to be political on this blog, but honestly, this is a human life issue. Either you care if people die or you don't. Either you care if people are suffering or you don't. You don't get to say "The health care system is fine the way it is" and expect to be treated with respect by the adults in the room. You certainly won't get any respect by comparing our mandate-elected Constitutionally-legal President to the Fuhrer of Germany. That is disgusting, hateful, and vile and you full well know it.

Remote Access Medical facilities were designed to provide quick and dirty medical care in third world countries. The doctors and medical volunteers behind this great organization are having to spend their time more and more on US soil treating uninsured and under insured tax-paying employed non-illegal alien Americans. (You can donate to their work around the world by clicking the name RAM.)

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Sunday School 4

It's time for another round of this week's latest and greatest sites I happened to stumble upon. Feel free to direct me to good stuff, too. If I missed the most awesome video/article/blog please let me know. (Half the purpose of this blog is a resource for myself of cool stuff I've found. My bookmarks tab gets full too quickly.)

Jerry's Blog posted this awesome video on continental drift. Little Man and I watched it a couple times already. I think even creationists accept continental drift, but I could be wrong about the YECs.


650 Million Years in 1 Min. and 20 Sec. - Watch more Funny Videos

Pretty, no?

Trust me on this one, and go to Bay of Fundie's blog for Like a Virgin

Forever in Hell takes on the Christian Anti-Defamation League in "If God's So Great, Why Do You Keep Losing?" That's what I was planning on linking you to at least. Then I read this response to cries of "the government can't get anything right" and so now I think you should go there too/instead.

Actually, I'm going to quote part of it here because it's just so brilliant.

This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Department of Energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US Department of Agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the Food and Drug Administration.

It goes on from there with more fabulousness.

Over on Proud Atheists you can watch Brad Pitt's appearance on Bill Maher. He talks (jokes?) about running for governor of Louisiana. His platform would be no religion, legalization and taxation of marijuana, and legalization of same-sex marriage. Heck, I don't live in Louisiana but I'd vote for him. Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie have been incredibly involved in New Orleans post-Katrina recovery through their Make It Right foundation. On a side note, I admire the heck outta Angelina. Her transformation gave me hope I too could outgrow my slutty, rebellious teen years. Now we're both moms and one of us is classy. (Hint: I am not classy.)

I really liked Cyber Lizard's science anecdote "The 'Real' Creation Story".

On the non-atheist My Older Brothers I about wet myself reading "Top Ten Things My Brother Learned Recently". Example: #3. If you notice a bunch of people pointing their camera phones at you, stop whatever you're doing and just walk away.

And.... Healthcare. Yes, I'm sorry to say there are people out there who still think healthcare reform and providing insurance for all Americans is a secret plot to kill old people. Or veterans. Or children with special needs. This one particularly offends because 1) Sarah Palin doesn't believe a word of what she's saying, and 2) I am the mother of a special needs child. This is just the most offensive form of fear-baiting I've come across; this whole healthcare debacle is all about turning Americans against each other. Haven't the right-wingers done that enough with all their values voters, their moral majority, and their wedge issues like abortion and same-sex marriage? Do we really need this to be getting in the way of my healthcare?

The White House has put together this "Reality Check".

Obama himself wrote this NY Times Op-Ed "Why We Need Health Care Reform".

This nice LA Times piece explains what's in the House bill.

The Atheist Jew takes it home with "Town Hall Nut Jobs Embarass the United States"

Forever in Hell reminds us that "Sarah Palin Was for Death Panels" before she was against them. Kind of like the Bridge to Nowhere.

Jerry's Blog explains the Republican Rent-a-Protester Machine and encourages people to become organ donors.

And since living wills/advanced directives have been in the news so much lately (often by idiots and charlatans) here's a place where you can put together your own living will. This document can help guide your family and physicians in making the choices for you that YOU want, like what measures you want them to take to save your life through interventions like a ventilator and resuscitation. It's about giving you the choice in your own health, not your doctor or your government or your family. You. As you can see this service isn't free. The Medicare end-of-life counseling provision mentioned in the House Bill (and villified by the likes of Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich) would pay for elderly Medicare recipients getting their legal wills.

Finally, dear readers, in health care as in all things - if it sounds too crazy to be true, look it up on FactCheck.org.

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Sunday School 2

Come in class. Sit, sit, sit. Today we're going to learn about Mother Theresa.



Here's a recent post from the Allied Atheist Alliance on the world's most famous nun. But don't worry, folks - that's not all we have to talk about today. We've also got this fantastic find by Neece over at Heaving Dead Cats. The Duelity project is two videos - one a scientific sounding explanation of creationism, and the other a poetic "yea thou" type telling of evolution. You can watch them separately or concurrently. (Of course, I watched each one, and then the combined version.) It's funny and well done and definitely worth a click.

Here's a touching story (I know, I know) about a 5 year old girl who decided to recycle cans to raise money for the homeless. She raised enough to feed over 18,000. (Better than some magic loaves and fishes any day, right?) The article ends with practical suggestions for small ways every one can help. Two hands in service do more good than two in prayer.

Billyist of Good Reasons News thoroughly quashes an anti-atheist OpEd hit piece in the Journal-Sentinel.

And, oh-my-scientitic-method! You need to watch this video (originally posted by MoJoey on Deep Thoughts and totally ganked by me). You will be laughing till you nearly pee, so have a good excuse if your boss wonders why you're snorting and squealing and sitting in pee.



Finally, as I'm sure many of you are aware, PZ Meyers, the Secular Student Alliance, and other atheists are taking a field trip to the Creation Museum. But the Creation Museum has sent back a warning to PZ that those atheists better act right! BlagHag has the funniest comic *ever* on the subject.

Finally, I'll leave you with the hilarious and perfect country music video, "What Would Jesus Do?" Seriously, click. I wouldn't steer you wrong. This is even *funnier* than "Storm". I've already re-watched it three times this morning.

Click play! Because Jesus looks like Bam Margera.



That's all for this week. See ya real soon!

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Creation or Evolution: Does it Really Matter?

I've been thinking about the popularity of the series "Chatting with Mormon Missionaries" here on ATAT, and I've found a new religious group to mock with a new batch of readily-available online supplies for my own amusement. Worldwide Church of God (which recently changed its name to Grace Communion International, is described on the official website thus:

We are a Christian denomination with more than 47,000 members, worshiping in about 900 congregations in almost 100 nations and territories. We began in 1934 and our main office is in southern California. We are members of the National Association of Evangelicals. In April 2009, we changed our name in the United States to Grace Communion International. This name better reflects who we are and what we teach. For a press release, click here.

The credible Christian anti-cult site Apologetics Index explains the shift from a previous near-cult church to the current one, which is much more in line with mainstream Christian doctrine. Which doesn't make it true of course, but less noticeable as strange or illogical.

Anyway, onto the pamphlets. Today's doozy had the funniest name, but there were serious contenders I plan to feature in later installments. Onto the funny. "Creation or Evolution: Does It Really Matter What You Believe?" features lovely monkey-and-dinosaur artwork on the cover, and opens with a section blaming our secular society for decreased belief in the Biblical creation story. (Society: 1, Bible: 0). In complaining about this current state of affairs the author writes,

The Bible is banned from classrooms in American schools, and serious discussion of the biblical view of the creation of our universe and our human origin is forbidden. At the same time, criticism of the theory of evolution is at times ruthlessly suppressed in academic and scientific circles.

Okay, first: Bibles aren't banned in schools. Students are free to pray, individually or collectively, to form student groups centered around their faith or religious preference, and may carry personal religious literature. What is banned is school-mandated enforcement of any religious belief or practice. Like prayer, or Bible reading, or creationism. And I love the idea of serious discussion, but the biblical views are ludicrous. Even the Vatican accepts evolution. Finally, scientists are not the ones ruthlessly suppressing any quest towards truth - the literal Bible believers are.

The section bounces around erratically, from claiming Darwin recanted in later years (yeah, pull the other one it's got bells on), to defining evolution by natural selection as "random chance", to claiming that the helplessness of the human infant is proof against evolution because (I freaking love this)

"If evolution is true and humanity is the pinnacle of the evolutionary process, why does a process as basic as human reproduction fly in the face of everything that evolution holds true?"

Wow. Okay, at this time I need to announce something: Evolution is a FACT. The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is supported by mountains of evidence that you can check out for yourself at TalkOrigins.org and is held to be the answer most likely to be true of all possible theories, including Creationism/Intelligent Design. Now that I've gotten that off my chest, who ever claimed humanity was the pinnacle of evolution? It hasn't stopped - it's occurring right now. The arrogance of man's superiority is a religious concept, so I can see why someone with no understanding of the scientific explanation might think this, but it's cocky as hell. At this point I ought to admit that I was a creationist up until a college biology class when I was 24. Let the shaming commence.

The pamphlet next blames scientific errors in the Bible like a geocentric universe on Greek philosophers and mistranslation. Then it jumps to one of the slipperiest slippery slope arguments I've seen since I watched Liz Cheney defending torture and Mormon Californians opposing same sex marriage. First, Darwin's loss of faith in the miracles of the Bible as he learned more about the natural world is presented as a frightening risk if you accept evolution. (And hey, I'd rather be on the side of fossils than fairy tales.) Then, this:

"There is great danger in following in Darwin's footsteps... Can we not lay part of the blame for rampant immorality on society's prevalent values and beliefs - derived to great extent from evolutionary theory?"

Hold up - accepting the Origin of Species as a brilliant work of natural science is the cause of immorality? What about that sin nature Christians are always going on about? It seems to only be the cause of their OWN shortcomings. Our heathen "sins" must be because of evolutionary theory infecting society's morals. Wow. Anyone else need a Dramamine to keep up with that dizzy spin?

Next is claiming paleontologists are con artists scamming an unsuspecting public, stating that there are NO transitional species in the fossil record (see some here!), and states that similarities between species are proof of a common DESIGNER, not a common ancestor. I have to admit this one tickled me a bit.

Here's a fun instance of redefining terms to make them almost fit (like doing a jigsaw puzzle with a straight razor and some krazy glue - I'll make it fit!)

"Evolution literally means simply the successive appearances of perfectly formed life without regard to how it got there. It does not have to refer to Darwinism, which is the doctrine that gradual change led to one species becoming another through the process of natural selection."

Wow, some loaded words in there. Okay, first "Darwinism" is a word used by Creationists, not by the vast majority of intelligent, rational adults who accept the viewpoint of the larger scientific community regarding evolution. So it's not an "ism" and it's not a dogma. It's a scientific theory, which means it has tons of evidence for it like other scientific theories (including gravity, which comes in handy a lot when my purse gets heavy). And on another point, please define "perfectly formed life" for me. Does the appendix factor heavily in the perfection of human life? How about our 32 teeth and jaws designed for 28? Or the aforementioned frailty of human infants? Somehow these complaints posed as objections to evolution aren't mentioned when talking about our perfect lifeforms "appearing" (spontaneously?).

Scientists are roundly abused, adaption within species (a key part of natural selection) is brushed aside as "microevolution" (which apparently has nothing to do with actual evolution), and Darwin is blamed for the Holocaust and other genocides.

The whole pamphlet is 41 pages so I'll just wrap up with this:

"You can choose to hold the view that there is no Creator and that we are simply the result of blind chance, a series of lucky accidents. You can decide for yourself how you should live and what values and principles will determine how you treat others. You can believe that man created God rather than the other way around."

Thanks, I think I will.

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 5

This time I decided to approach the debate as a guy (since they won't talk to Angie anymore). Let's see if "Mike" can get further with this misogynist sect.

You are speaking live with Austin, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Austin: hello, how can I help you?

Me: Hi I've got a question about the devil.
Why did God make the devil?


Austin: what kind of question?
(We've got a slow reader, slow typer, or slow internet connection here.)

Me: Why did God make the devil?

Austin: we don't believe that He did
(WTF? I learn new things about mormons every time I do these chats.)

Me: I thought god created everything
Where did the devil come from?
(Pause during which I cleaned up maybe a quarter of my son's toys.)

Austin: the Bible calls the devil a "fallen angel"

Me: oh sure, of course not. but he made him when he was still an angel right?

Austin: we all have the ability to choose who/what kind of person, etc we will be

Me: Can god destroy the devil, now that he is fallen?

Austin: this part is harder for a lot of people to grasp, but we actually believe that if anything has the ability to think and reason for itself- then God did not create that reasoning part- He created a body to house that reasoning
(Huh??)

Me: So God just makes our bodies, not our brains and minds?

Austin: well.. technically our brains are part of our bodies- but our minds, right. The part that allows us to think for ourselves and make decisions and reason, etc. That part of us is eternal

Me: So our minds are eternal, but God didn't make them? Then where did they come from?
And did the devil's mind come from the same place?

Austin: God's goal, everything He does, is that we (our intelligence or whatever you wish to call it) can become more like He is and experience the joy that He does, etc.
we don't know

Me: well, this is all very interesting. but back to the devil - since he has chosen to be fallen, or whatever, why doesn't god just smite him?

Austin: and yes, the devil is included in that. Eternity is something that is hard, maybe impossible for us to grasp. In Eternity, I don't think there is any "come from"

Me: So nothing really made our minds, they just always existed?

Austin: God has a perfect plan, which is in place. it began long before He created the world and will continue until the final resurrection. Before then, everything that needs to happen will... everything will be worked out before the end.
As far as we know, yes

Me: but if god knows everything that will ever happen, why did he let the devil tempt Eve in teh garden and make mankind fall?

Austin: the fall is actually part of the plan

Me: It is?

Austin: God knows what will happen. He doesn't stop it, but He does make a way for us to overcome it.
The important principle is agency
(Free will alert! Free will alert!)

Me: Agency?

Austin: God won't stop us from making our own decisions- and suffering the consequences
but He gives us opportunities to learn about consequences before we make decisions

Me: and he won't stop the devil from making his own decisions and letting all of us suffer the consequences, right?

Austin: He gives us the Gospel, and the Holy Ghost so that we will know which decisions will bring happiness, and which won't
that's correct. Instead, He gives us tools to use so that we can avoid the traps of the devil

Me: But after the Fall we're all cursed. We don't live in the garden, men have to work and women suffer pain in childbirth, right?
Even though only Adam and Eve had agency in that, we all suffer the consequences.

Austin: we actually look on the fall as a necessary step in God's plan
(Then it's a STUPID plan!)

Me: but why couldn't he have just I don't know made the garden without the tree or without the devil? Then people would still have agency but we wouldn't suffer from disease and pain.

Austin: if they hadn't been banished from the Garden of Eden, we know that they wouldn't have been able to have children... and none of us would be able to get a body. A physical body and a mortal life are necessary steps to becoming more like God
we must endure pain sometimes so that we can learn to fully appreciate joy and happiness

Me: They couldn't have kids in the garden? But God made Adam out of dust and Eve out of his rib. So we could still have had physical bodies without leaving the Garden.
Some pain, sure, but not kids starving to death around the world. I don't see how that helps anyone appreciate joy and happiness.

Austin: may I share with you a passage of scripture that explains this principle of being free to choose?

Me: sure

Austin: link
That becomes the question, then.. how much suffering isenough? Luckily we don't hav eto understand that. We only have to learn to trust that God is in control and that things will work out. He gives peace to our souls if we trust and follow Him.
That is one part of the power of the Holy Ghost- to bring peace to our souls despite trials, etc.

Me: Well I read the article, but a lot of it is confusing to me

Austin: I understand

Me: Why did God design a system where mankind had to fall? Why couldn't he make people able to grow and have kids and learn and progress, but still stay safe and happy in the garden? why make things so that innocent children starve to death?

Austin: this part is hard at first for a lot of people, but as you study the plan as a whole- and continue to pray and ask God for His help in understanding, etc.- it will continue to make more sense

Me: well since it makes sense to you, maybe you can explain it to me? I thought God was all powerful. Shouldn't a wise, eternal, all-powerful god be able to make a better system than this one?

Austin: you have to remember that He didn't create the part of us that is 'us'-the unique core of us. His plan is the only/best way to take us from where we were before to where we can have the joy that God has.
If He could have, He would have
this must be the best possible system
(Must be because my god is a little god.)

Me: He's limited in his power?

Austin: He can do everything that can be done, but there must be Eternal laws that GOd is subject to (must like we are subject to the laws of physics). but these Eternal laws are things like justice, balance, etc.

Me: God is subject to Eternal laws? Well, did someone or something cause these laws to exist, or do they supersede God?

Austin: we don't know. It's back to the "Eternal" thing again

Me: well this is really interesting. I've never heard this idea of things being more eternal than God.
Is God more powerful than the devil?

Austin: nothing is MORE Eternal
either it's Eternal or it isn't
I don't think there can be degrees of Eternal

Me: okay good point :)
(This is probably my own Christian childhood. I was taught we had eternal souls, from the moment of conception moving forward, but not backward in time.)

Austin: but this is really turning into a more philosophical speculative conversation than what is actually the purpose of this site

Me: Oh well I just... I guess I don't understand why a loving god would let kids starve to death for some master plan. I have one kid and I'd never let him starve no mater what

Austin: there is a lot we cannot understand about God and the Eternal nature of things- but we do know is important
and that is outlined here on this website
I encourage you to continue to read through the outlines here

Me: Maybe I just love my son more than God loves us?
(I do.)

Austin: and we can clarify any questions you have about what you read
that's definitely not the case. God's love is perfect. (NOT!)But He does understand things better than we do

Me: I don't know, I think I understand suffering better than he must

Austin: at some level- and that level might be different for different people- we have to put our trust in God's hands

Me: I do everything in my limited power to stop it, he doesn't

Austin: and understand that as Isaiah and Proverbs teach us-His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, etc.

Me: Higher or just different? It seems like Higher would mean better, and better would be less kids starving to death

Austin: I would not underestimate what God understand=)
*understands

Me: Maybe if he cures all the disease in the world, or ends hunger I'll believe. I can't understand worshiping a god that lets innocent people hurt so much

Austin: hold on a moment
I have to go help some new missionaries
would you like to wait? or can I transfer you to another representative who can teach you what we believe about how to gain trust in God and His plan even if we don't understand it all?

Me: Either one would be great

Austin: ok, one moment
Has transferred you to: Kendall

You are speaking live with Kendall, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is provided for assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Kendall: Hey Mike give me a moment to read the conversation to ceath up

Me: Sure thing

Kendall: Alright Mike so if I understand correctly you have a qusetion still about why God lets us suffer?

Me: And why he won't just destroy the devil

Kendall: there is actually a scripture in The Book of Mormon that explains this perfectly
are you familiar with the Book of Mormon at all?

Me: no, not really

Kendall: The Book of Mormon is similar to the Bible meaning that it is another witness of Jesus Christ's life and minestry. However it was written by the people who lived in aincent America, in 6000 B.C.

Me: okay

Kendall: Just like the book of James or John in the Bible, the Book of Mormon has other books such as a section called the Book of Nephi
Nephi was a prophet who was taught by God and here is what he has to say about why we must suffer.
Link

Me: Okay - let me read this first
(Now my son wants pancakes, so the ultimate multi-tasking adventure begins)
it basically looks like it says that everything happens in balance? like there has to be evil for good to exist?

Kendall: that is exactly right
imagine never knowing pain, or sorrow
how could you then know joy and peace?

Me: well, actually I think so. Some people have pretty good lives all the way through, and they're happy. Other people have lives that are mixes of pain and happiness

Kendall: That is true, it always does seem like that on the surface. But I promise you that everyone goes through trials in their lives, they just might not be that visible to others. Do you remember the story of Job from the Bible?

Me: well okay but I'm not asking about minor troubles. I'm asking about kids starving to death.

Kendall. So why would God allow his children to die, if He loves them?

Me: yes, exactly. because I would do everything in my power to keep my son from starving or dying or suffering

Kendall: If I had a son, I would do the exact same thing. But if you were to solve every problem that your son has, then how could he learn?

Me: I'm not saying every problem. I'm saying those ones - starving, dying, and suffering. God is supposed to be more powerful than I am, but he lets people starve, die, and suffer. Why?

Kendall: Are you familiar with what happened to God's son Jesus Christ when he was on earth?

Me: yeah, and that's something else I don't get. Why kill his own son? He's the one who set up the system. Why not make a system that doesn't require a blood sacrifice?

Kendall: God created a plan so that we could return and live with Him, but this could only be possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

(Now my neighbor is here. She has a job interview so I'm watching her son for a little bit. While making debating mormons - and making pancakes. Why do I have the feeling this won't end well?)

Me: It seems like if I had been all powerful and all knowing, I'd come up with a different system. Heck, I'd do anything to avoid having my son tortured, beaten, and hung to death.

Kendall: I think for the most part we would all feel the same way. However before Christ left this life, He said to the God, "father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Even after Christ was tourtured, and spit upon, and forsaken by His own people
He still only cared about us

Me: I'm not questioning Christ's love for us. I'm questioning God's love for both Christ and us

Kendall: alright, and that is a doubt that most people have.

Me: How do you get beyond that doubt to trust him?
(Crap! Pancakes are burning. Time to take them off the stove.)

Kendall: So imagine knowing that your family is introuble, and the only way to help them is by sending your only son to them. But you know that he will suffer beyond comprehension, would you till send your son to them?
(Christian neighbor mom totally, unquestioningly answered the same. "NO!" It's a non-brainwashed thing.)

Me: No, because I'm his mother. He's an innocent and he depends on me.
*father
(At this point, I was sure I'd blown it. They MUST realize I'm actually female - right?)

Kendall: But why did God send his son, when Christ never sinned nor did anything wrong in his life knowing of all the things that will happen to His son?

Me: I don't know. It doesn't make sense to me. Why couldn't he just make us good, or forgive us? How does torturing someone (or letting him be tortured) make the rest of us less sinful?

Kendall: Because God cannot, nor will he control us. That was Lucifer's plan. The only possible reason is Love.

Me: LOVE?
Letting children starve to death is part of a plan for love? Having his own son brutally murdered is love?

Kendall: We might not understand right now, but we must first trust in God. There will always be doubts, the doubts never go away. It only becomes a probelm when the doubts overweigh the truth.

Me: How can you trust a God who allows so much wickedness as part of his plan? It just doesn't seem right to me to trust someone who has the power to stop evil, but won't do it.
Why won't god destroy the devil?

Kendall: Life would deffinetly be a lot easier, and because life would be so easy that we would not grow as much as we could if their was no trials.

Me: But maybe we wouldn't be so broken either. And kids who starve to death never have a chance to grow - they're dead. Why won't god destroy the devil? We could still grow and learn without him, and it would probably be easier to love each other and be good to one another if we weren't tempted to be wicked

Kendall: In the Bible Christ is always tell us to help the poor and the needy. Maybe it is not God but the people in the World who are letting the children starve.
(Capital "W" in World concerns me.)

Me: It's both. But people only have so much power - go is all powerful. Surely he could make more food or help crops grow better or something like that. That wouldn't even interfere with agency, it would just mean there was enough food for everybody, in all places. Can't he do that?

Kendall: Of course He could, but how could that help the world for the greater good? sure people would not be hungry or dieing, but how does that help the people who wont help, who wont donate to the needy, who wont asist the poor?

Me: Are you saying God cares more about the people who won't help than the people who are starving?

Kendall: not at all, but that that is where the bigger problem is
It is already in our power to help them
just that most people choose not to

Me: But if no one was starving, it wouldn't matter if some people weren't helping. Right now people aren't helping and so other, innocent people have to suffer. And God has the power to stop, but won't. How is that loving or just or balanced?
Do Mormons send food to starving people?

Kendall: Ofcourse we do, tons
the first sunday of every month we have something called fast sunday

Me: That's really good. I think it's important to help starving people. I just don't understand why God doesn't seem to think that it's as important as you Mormons do, or as I do. Can you explain this to me because it doesn't make sense to me?

Kendall: God does care, that is why He commands us to do it. Who better to take of the poor than their own brothers and sisters? We have all already been given so much by God that he expects us to be the one to help them.

(Boys! Quit hitting each other. One of you can bounce on the trampoline and one of you can play with the fire truck. DON'T throw the fire truck!)

Me: God would be better at it, because he could fix the problem all at once. He's all powerful. He can get into countries that have secured border, where humanitarian aid can't go. He could take care of the people he created (their bodies at least) better than we can because he isn't limited like we are

Kendall: That is why we must learn how to do it.

Me: We must learn how to do it, because God can but he won't?

Kendall: But through the people who are doing it, in a way, isn't God himself doing it

Me: No! The people are doing it. If God was doing it himself, it would be a big miracle, like turning 7 loaves of bread and 2 fish into enough to feed the crowds listening to Jesus speak. Why won't he do that with starving African children now?

Kendall: Link

Me: I think it's good and valuable that you help. I also like that the Jews, Chrsitians, Catholics and Muslims help. But why doesn't God just fix it?
And why won't he just destroy the devil?

Kendall: Our church is only 15.5 million to 6.75 billion people in the world, yet look at how much we have tried to help

Me: I think that's excellent. I just wish your god was as good to humanity as you are.
If he has the power to destroy the devil, why won't he do it?

Kendall: I can totally understand why this is such an important topic to you. And if it was just as important to you as it was to everyone else, then their would be no starvation in the world.
as for the Devil, he has no power over us. It is only when we allow him to
So why would God destroy him?

Me: Because he is evil. And evil should be eliminated, don't you think?

Kendall: He has given us all we need to over come the devil. The rest is up to us.

Me: It seems like God set us up so that most people would fail. How many people are there on earth, and how many will make it to heaven?

Kendall: He has already done his part to give us a way to make it to heaven. It is not Him, but ourselves that is keeping us from going to heaven.

But the way he gave us lets most people fall through the cracks

Kendall: It is because the people Chose to not follow God

Me: If God is all powerful and all knowing, why not make a system that fewer people fail at? If he loves us, but most of us don't make it to heaven, why doesn't he change the plan?

Kendall: The plan is perfect, does it not make sense as to why we fail?

Me: The plan where kids starve to death and his own son is a blood sacrifice is perfect? I don't agree

Kendall: But what happened to his son after his death?

Me: Well he went to hell for two days, but god sends his other children - us- to hell for eternity all the time. Which just doesn't seem loving at all to me
There's absolutely nothing my son could do that would make me torture him for even one second, much less forever

Kendall: He didn't go to hell, infact he is given everything that the father has

Me: but what about people god does send to hell. Aren't we all god's children?
(Neighbor-mom is back. Time to take the little ones outside for a minute.)

Kendall: Your questions are important to me, thanks for sharing, but I know that God's plan was perfect. He knew that His son had to suffer because he loves us. If Christ didn't pay for our sins, there would be no hope for us to even be with God.
Think about that, we sin and are so imperfect and God has provided a way for us to be clean and return to Him. Instead of criticizing his plan, we should be grateful that He has provided a way for us to return through His Son

Kendall: Has transferred you to Nathan

You are speaking live with Nathan, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Nathan: Hello, hang on a second... I have a few other people I am helping right now and I'll be with you in a minute...

Nathan: Has transferred you to Shawn

You are speaking live with Shawn, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Shawn: Hello?

Me: Hi Shawn?
(I've been outside for 15 minutes. Surely they've hung up on me.)

Shawn: Yes. How can I help you?
(Whoa! They'll stick around FOREVER if you're a MAN.)

Me: Hi Shawn. I just have one question. Why hasn't God destroyed the devil?

Shawn: Because he is necessary to our growth and learning. Our purpose on this earth is to learn to distinguish between good and evil. Choosing good leads to happiness, joy, and freedom. Choosing evil leads to captivity, and misery. There must be opposition.
There will always been good and evil because there will always be agency and opposition.

Me: Do you think it's possible to distinguish between good and evil without following the Mormon faith?

Shawn: Yes. All men have been given the Light of Christ - which is like a ingrown knowledge, or conciounce. However, when one repeatedely goes against that light and chooses to do wrong, that light dims and it is then harder to distinguish.

Me: Okay so if someone follows his moral center, and does what is right his whole life, will he go to heaven?

Shawn: Doing what is right all of your life is one necessity and step you must take, but it must be accompanied with certain ordinances. For none can enter the Kingdom of God save through faith in Christ, baptism, and repentance.
We believe in three different Kingdoms of Heaven - the Celestial (Highest), the Terrestrial, and the Telestial. All ordinances must be performed to enter the Celestial.

Me: So if someone is born in say Laos and he's a good man and kind and does what is right, but he never gets baptized or has faith in Christ - what happens to him?

Shawn: ALL men will be given the opportunity to accept Christ and be baptized. All will hear the Gospel and have the opportunity to accept Christ and the ordinances before they are Judged and placed into a Kingdom of God.

Me: Like, after they die but before they go to one of the levels of heaven or to hell?

Shawn: Yes. Exactly

Me: Well, that seems good. But then why bother to do missionary work here on earth?
If God will give everyone a chance later, maybe we should just concentrate on being good people and worry about heaven and hell after we die.

Shawn: Because this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God. That is the whole purpose of our time here. And we are the exact same after we die - we leave this world with the same knowledge, thoughts, beliefs.

Me: Wait, so we're exactly the same, then will people make different choices when they're given that last opportunity to hear the Gospel, or will they hold onto the beliefs they had on earth?
(Because otherwise, atheists are right. We can wait till we're dead to commit - the Mormon God is actually allowing for disbelief due to lack of evidence up UNTIL judgment!)

Shawn: They could do either. But their feelings they had while on earth are the same. Yet, just like hearts and attitudes can be changed here, they could be changed there as well. It is really up to the person.
(WTF? Better steer this conversation somewhere that isn't totally foreign to me.)

Me: But I still don't see why the devil is necessary for growth and learning. Good can exist without evil. Evil can exist without good.
If good depended on evil to BE good, then that would mean God depends on the devil to BE god. And that doesn't make sense to me at all.

Shawn: Could you ever know really what happiness is if you never experienced grief, pain and sorrow?
Could you know something was hot if you had never felt cold?
All things are relative to their opposition and the things around them.

Me: Yes, I think so. My son has had a very good life, and he is happy everyday.
He doesn't need to hurt to know what it feels like to not hurt. He doesn't need to starve to know that it feels good to have a healthy meal.

Shawn: Link
The highlighted verses should explain the concept

Me: Kendall sent the same verse. It says everything happens in balance, but I don't think that's true.

Shawn: If your son knew NOTHING except a good meal - did not even know there existed anything different - he could not comprehend what a bad meal was.

Me: Like I just said, my son doesn't need to feel starvation to know eating food is good. Our brains send us signals that we like food and so we eat it.
So what's the harm of not comprehending a bad meal?

Shawn: Well then he cannot be truly happy - maybe he feels he is happy, or balanced, but there is more happiness out there than he knows
Because then you cannot experience FULL happiness.
He is content, but he is not reaching the full possibility of joy, happiness and knowledge.

Me: Maybe the happiness that doesn't require suffering, starvation, pain, and death of innocent children across the world is a BETTER kind than the "full" happiness you're describing.

Shawn: Ignorance is bliss

Me: It makes no sense that you have to experience pain to be happy. You have to experience pain to be miserable, I'll grant you that.
Yes and bliss is another word for happy

Shawn: So if he only knew pain and suffering, then he should be content and blissful as well. What you are saying implies that they are opposite.
(No shit happiness and misery are opposites. Heck, Noggin cartoons establish that lesson daily before 9 a.m. Mormon = moron right about now.)

Me: NO! He'd be miserable. Pain and suffering cause misery. Safety, protection, and provision cause happiness.

Shawn: If we were all only ever sad and pained and so forth, then we would still be content
(Sheltered, brainwashed, CLUELESS Shawn.)

Me: No, we wouldn't be.
Because people who grow up in abusive homes, and don't know anything but sadness and pain, they are not content. They are miserable.

Shawn: They only cause misery because we know that we are miserable because we know we are not happy - because we know the difference.

Me: Parents who lose their children to AIDS and starvation in Africa, who only know pain and suffering, they are not happy. They are miserable.

Shawn: If there was not a difference, it would not matter what we experienced - it would be the same.
(Gee, if there was no difference rape would be as okay as not rape. Well duh! There IS a difference. The presence of lovemaking isn't what makes rape bad. Rape makes rape bad. Starvation is not what makes food good.)

Me: Shawn what you're saying makes no sense.
Pain = bad, not pain = good.

Shawn: Because they know of something different- they talk to people who are different, they see difference on tv, they know difference.

Me: You don't have to break one ankle to know that the other one is healthy

Shawn: They know difference thought because of this Light of Christ which is given to all men

Me: Why is knowing the difference more important than just being "content" in the Garden of Eden, or just going straight to heaven? Why make some people suffer unimaginable pain so that others can experience more joy and contentment?
That's not loving. That's God picking favorites. (Which He does in the Bible - chosen people and such.)

Shawn: You should pray about this, with real intent, truly wanting the answer, and you will get one. (AKA - I don't have an answer. Ask Magic Man.)

Me: Have you gotten one when you prayed about this?

Shawn: I know that God is our Father and he wants us to experience full joy. I know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I know that we are here for a purpose and that God has a plan for each of us. I know that God's plan is perfect.
Yes, I have. I know it as a fact. That is how real my answers have been.

Me: What do you know of starving children who die in the desert?
or kids who are beaten in foster homes?
How is that part of a perfect plan?

Shawn: God knows and loves them.

Me: Love means taking care of someone. Love means trying to stop needless suffering.

Shawn: We do not know all things God knows.

Me: I don't claim to know all things God knows. But I know that if *I* was all powerful, I'd put an end to starvation.

Shawn: Do you attend church now?

Me: What does that have to do with the continued existence of the devil, or God's ambivalence to human suffering?

Shawn: I know that God's plan is perfect. I have no doubt. I know that God knows all things and all things will be made right in the end.

Me: So it's okay for thousands of children to suffer and die for the "greater good" of God's plan?

Shawn: I don't know. I just know God loves His children.

Me: Love means not letting someone starve to death.
If God' plan is love, then it's seriously overrated.

Shawn: Part of his love is our agency. He cannot stop us from making choices.
(Here we go again with free will...)
If a father chooses to beat his child, that is his choice, and God respects agency.
(WTF? I seriously did not see this coming!)

Me: What child born in a 3rd world country, already infected with HIV, has agency?
God respects beating your kids?
If you knew a man was beating his children, would you try to stop him?

Shawn: This life is but a small part. We will live for eternity.

Me: If you saw your neighbor beat his child, would you try to stop him?

Shawn: I know all of this is true. I have prayed, I have felt greater joy than I have ever known. It is clear we have different beliefs. I respect yours. We are both rooted in our opinions. So this conversation must come to an end.

Me: If you say your neighbor beat his child, would you try to stop him? Just please answer that
My opinion is the moral one that does not try to excuse an unjust god.

Shawn: Have a nice day!

What have I learned? Shawn was by far the most brainwashed. "I know I'm right because I know I'm right because I know I'm right." Circular logic blows. Apparently Mormons are waaaaay more off from the Christianity I'm more familiar with than I'd realized. God didn't make our "selves" just our bodies? Seems like a god that didn't do that part shouldn't get to screw with us as much as he does, in that case. He should only have jurisdiction or guardianship over the physical self. And what's up with god being subject to "eternal laws"? That's different. Of course, all religions are weird and only the one you grew up with seems semi-normal. But still, there was a lot more Scientology similarities than I'd expected. And most important of all: Mormons will spend literally 2 hours talking to a man, trying to persuade him, but will log off lickety-split from a woman who disagrees.

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