God's Will vs. Your Plans

Hey everyone, I'm back in action in Denver, with my first Mountain Time counter-apologetic. From JustBetweenUs.org, yet another Christian womens magazine, we've got an article on "God's Will vs. Your Plans." (I love how their sales pitch for buying a friends subscription says, "Give the gift of encouragement." The audicity of Christian vendors who promise spiritual gifts in the form of merchandise brings to mind the money changers Jesus was so peeved at.) This particular article appears to have been written by a man, unless Stuart Briscoe is an unfortunately named woman.

Stuff happens. We all know that. Sometimes it’s good, other times it’s horrible. When it’s good we don’t spend too much time analyzing it – we just enjoy it! But when it’s bad we ask questions, we want answers. “Why did this happen?” Or more likely, “Why did this happen to me?”

We've come across this assumption in apologetics before - the idea that we are only aware of or concerned with our own pain. Speaking for myself (the only person I can freely & with some accuracy speak for) this simply isn't true. For as long as I can remember, I have ached for those who are homeless or overcome with illness (mental or physical) or for those who do not have enough food. There has never been a time in my life when I was not concerned about the fate of others - not just my own friends and family, but also relative and complete strangers. It does not take a tragedy in my own life for me to be aware that life is often unfair.

If we’re of a philosophical frame of mind, “Why do bad things happen to good people?” Some people shrug their shoulders and say, “Stuff happens and that’s all there is to it.” Others say, “You make your own life; you’re responsible for your own happenings.”

Others sound like victim-blaming jerks, don't they? When people take the "bootstrap" approach to life (the idea that, given sufficient effort, will, and determination, anyone can work their way to success) I believe they do it out of ignorance, and unnoticed privelige. I am white and live in the United States. There are certain things which are automatically granted to me - a certain degree of intelligence is assumed by professors, before I've opened my mouth. (In contrast, friends of color have told me they are often intially treated as less able than their white peers, until they have demonstrated otherwise.) I am a woman in America - there are certain automatic privileges I am not given because of this. I will likely make less money than men in the same field of work, at the same ability level. I will be villainized for enjoying sex, for speaking my mind, and for having opinions not in line with the majority. But all these *are* "bootstrap" situations to some degree. But when we look at people born into poverty, born HIV infected, born with no work available, no education, no proper medicine - we have a very different situation indeed. Some odds cannot be overcome. When we tell people their lives are of their own making, we ignore everything that impacts and informs their lives.

And then there are those who say “everything is determined.” Some say environment and genes are the determining factors while others say “God is sovereign and He dictates what happens.”

I'm not sure anyone says genes and environment "determine" things to the extent many Christians believe their god does. My genes and environment led to my mental illnesses. But how I respond to them has been affected by my choices - you know, that free will stuff Christians are so fond of. Yes, I think the kinds of choices, my ability for decision making, and my thought processes were all impacted by my genes and craptastic childhood environment. I often wonder who I could have been had I been born into a different family - not in a cult, maybe just mainstream Christian, or even in an atheist home. Who would I be? Whoever that theoretical person might be, I don't believe she'd be me in any important sense of the word. I don't believe in destiny.

It seems to me that the Bible is clear that God is in charge. If He isn’t, He isn’t God! But there is lots of biblical evidence that people are responsible for their actions, too. So I believe that God has chosen sovereignly to give us choice and related responsibility. Ultimately He is in control; but within the context of that control, He has granted us freedom to act. He is sovereign, we are responsible.

Wow, God's got a great set up - for him. Imagine getting to be the boss - be in control and sovereign over everything - but not having to take responsibility. Where do I sign up for that deal? On a pertinent note, Briscoe has stated clearly where he falls on the problem of evil (God won't fix it, rather than can't.) Clearly his god is an able one, and one who reigns supreme. However, Briscoe still tries to lay the blame on humanity. We'll see in the following to what lengths he'll go to maintain that an all-powerful, totally in control deity bears no responbility for the consequences of his actions and inactions.

But more. The environment in which He has chosen we should live is less than perfect. It is “fallen” and we are not exempt from its ills and its woes. So stuff happens in our lives under the sovereign control of the Lord who has intentionally given us free will and placed us in a difficult and dangerous environment.

Okay, so our author agrees that his god knowingly chose for us to live in a flawed or "fallen" environment, where natural disasters, disease, and human suffering are sure to follow. He's sovereign, yet we're responsible? Free will obviously plays no part in our environment, if God has willed it so. It's clearly his will, not ours. (Seriously, would you choose this world among all possible worlds, if you were really given such a choice? I think I'd pick a world without crib death and starvation, personally.)

Things come our way sometimes because we made them come our way.

Let's blame the victim! Christianity's favorite gameshow, fun for the whole family!

Sometimes they happen because of the fallen circumstances in which we live and from which we are made.

God's will, in other words.

Other times they happen because of the actions of others, but always under the ultimate oversight of God who rules in the affairs of men and women. God’s will rules!

So again, how are we responsible?

When Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane contemplating His imminent crucifixion, He asked if there was another way He could accomplish His mission, but then immediately told the Father, “Not My will, but Thine be done.” There was, in that moment, the most remarkable acceptance of the divine will in human history.

I've always wondered how it was that Jesus and God the Father could have such different wills at that moment. Aren't God and Jesus one in the same? And for that matter, if Jesus is divine, how on earth is his moment of self-sacrifice credited to human history? Either he's god (in which case, shouldn't he have the same will?) or he's human, and is therefore not god. You really can't have it both ways, Christians. The Trinity makes no sense, and this is just one passage that suggests why.

And it was not going to be pleasant. Jesus was willingly agreeing with the Father that His will was, as Paul would later say, “Good, acceptable and perfect” (Rom. 12: 2). But it was a most horrendous will, a most excruciating plan.

Horrendous and excrutiating sound about right, but how can you recognize that while simultaneously calling it "good, acceptable, and perfect?" The idea that the Biblical god is the most loving father figure ever imagined or described is positively sickening. I grew up without my dad, and was adamant in not wanting my mother to remarry. We worshiped the god, mind you, who "tests" Abraham by asking him to slaughter his only child, the same god who supposedly sent his own son to be tortured and executed, the same god who flooded the whole earth, killing untold numbers of humans and animals because he got pissed off. Is it any wonder, when the primary image of a father I held was Yawhew, that I so strongly did not want one?

The question that then comes to mind is, “How can something so horrendous be good, acceptable and perfect?” This is not simply a theoretical question. Millions of believers have been faced with a similar one as they have confronted the difficult dimensions of life at the same time they were trying desperately to hold on to the belief that God’s will is best.

Well yes that question did come to mind, but for a different reason than the one supposed. I wondered at the logical consistency of god having a different will from himself.

When a young husband dies leaving a widow and three small children, how can that be part of a good, acceptable and perfect will? When a young couple desperately anxious to have children encounter infertility, how do they fit that into a good divine plan?

I was so upset when my godmother died. How could God be so selfish? She did so much for this world, and for all the people around her. How would her husband, her kids, and her grandkids (not to mention the rest of the community) be better off without her? She passed away four years ago, and I miss her still, but at least now I don't have to worship the being I believed was also responsible for subjecting her to three rounds of breast cancer, surgery, and chemotherapy.

Perhaps the only way we can hold firmly to a good will and confront unpleasant issues is to recognize that the only person who can ultimately determine the “goodness” or the “badness” of something is the person who has all the facts at his or her disposal. And none of us has that capability.

What he is essentially saying is that we have no basis from which to make value judgments, and that is absolute bollocks. Most of us, whether believers or nonbelievers, judge something which causes unnecessary suffering as being less desired than something which does not, all other points being equal. I realize this is a very simplistic way of stating basic morality, but we can and do make value judgments all day long. The idea that we shouldn't make such judgments is inherent to Christianity; after all, Adam and Eve were rousted from the garden for just learning right from wrong. Apparently Briscoe's god would rather we just blindly obey than analyze a situation ethically and rationally. "Don't question the leader," he tells us, in subtler prose.

There are certain things to which God has introduced us, and there are others that are hidden in the inscrutable depths of His divine plan. As Moses said, “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever” (Deut. 29:29).

Is this why so many faithful feel threatened by science's continued encroachment on the mysterious? These things should be left to god?

We don’t know all He knows. We will never know this side of eternity what He doesn’t reveal; but we do know what He has told us, and we must tenaciously hold on to that.

I wonder if our author's tenancious hold on what "He has told us" means that Briscoe has never gotten a haircut, or eaten at Red Lobster. Somehow, I am skeptical (and not just because the Cheddar Bay biscuits are buttery yummy goodness.)

So suppose we can arrive at that position, how do we handle life’s unpleasantnesses or worse? Let me make a few suggestions:

Wait, the position that "sometimes things happen" or "life isn't fair?" Easy - become a nihilist, or a realist, or an atheist. (Note, only nihilism and Christianity require accepting things as they are without seeking to change them. Humanitarians know about the crises in our world, yet they don't accept that things must always be as they are.

1. Recognize that there is nothing fundamentally surprising about being exposed to bad things. Jesus was, and He warned His disciples they would be, too. He intentionally left us in a world that had rejected Him and He warned that we would be treated no differently.

And isn't that a strange thing for an all-knowing, all-powerful god to do? A warning seems like a rather paltry help from a god who's supposed to be in charge of absolutely everything.

Peter certainly got the message and later wrote, “Do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you” (1 Pet. 4:12). This is what life in this sad world is like – even for believers!

Well, I can agree that this is what the world is like, right now. But I don't buy into any sort of fatalism that the world will always be like this, or must. Furthermore, the kinds of trials and sufferings I might face are drastically different from what another person will. Being a teenaged American girl with anorexia is not the same as being a malnourished starving child in a third world country. We are not all created equal, nor are we born into equal conditions.

2. Remember that what God permits in your life will never outstrip the grace He makes available to enable you to live well in it. He doesn’t promise escape from difficulties, but He does guarantee grace to live well in them.

You wanna tell that to my friend whose two baby girls were born with rare, incurable forms of brain cancer?

Paul told the Corinthians, “God is faithful: He will not let you be tempted (or tested) beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide a way out so you can stand up under it” (1 Cor. 10:13).

Gee, well it's nice to know every Christian drug addict out there hasn't been given more than they can handle! Too bad there's no evidence of such a thing, but it is awfully nice to just sit back and wait for people to bootstrap themselves (with the aid of God, of course) out of their troubles. I mean, who needs charity when God doesn't give people more than they can handle on their own?

3. Reflect on the way that difficulties and stresses are often the means to development and growth.

Oooh, we're getting to one of my least favorite Christian Excuses for God's Negligence ever!

In the same way that an athlete is conditioned for better performance through carefully monitored training, so the believer is granted the chance to mature through the difficult dimensions of the divine will. Paul wrote, “we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope” (Rom. 5:4).

First of all, Yoda has a better illogical run than Paul, and that was in Episode One which *sucked*. Second, I wonder what on earth was the maturation and training my son received by having severe infant GERD (an incredibly painful recurrance of heartburn and difficulty digesting food) that left scars in his esophagous by the time he was 3 months old. How exactly was that a good thing for my son to go through? It brought him intense pain and did harm to his infant body, yet he experienced that as an infant, long before he could hold onto the memory or gain any kind of insight or benefit from that pain. Also, the twisted idea that suffering leads to hope is founded on ridiculous logic. Hope is found in the alleviation of suffering, in joy, in happiness, in love, in a beautiful sunrise at the start of a new day. Watching someone you love suffer does not bring hope, but it brings sadness and pain and often a feeling of impotence. Tell me, does your god find hope in watching all this suffering, despite his omnipotence?

The reason it really pisses me off, though, is because it lets god off the hook. Not only that, but it gives him credit for human achievements of will. How dare a Christian tell me my pain was all part of some god's plan, and that my own tenacity and refusal to be a victim is somehow evidence of HIS hand in my life? Whether your god exists or not, he did nothing to save me from the mental, emotional, sexual, and physical abuse I suffered at the hands of Christian folk for decades. He does not get credit for my survival; I do.

4. Refuse to be intimidated by the forces that oppose you in your life, and recognize that the way you conduct yourself in the hard times is evidence of God being truly at work in your life.

No! How you conduct yourself is evidence of YOU - your own actions, decisions, choices, stress techniques, addictions, predilictions, and ideas. I will hold my head up high in the face of adversity because of who I am, whether your god exists or not. He plays no role in my life.

It is also a reminder to those who may be the cause of your difficulties that they will not escape the consequences of their actions. Paul told the Philippians in no uncertain terms not to be “frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved – and that by God” (Phil. 1: 28).

Fright is a perfectly natural human response. The labeling of some emotions or impulses as black-and-white BAD is not helpful. I was forbidden to be afraid as a child; this didn't stop the fear, although it did make it impossible for me to work through my scared feelings with a reasonable, loving adult who could accept my full range of human emotions. And this isn't really helpful for the kinds of suffering and pain caused by natural disasters or disease. You know, the stuff God is totally in control of.

5. Resist the temptation to resent the hard edges of God’s will by acknowledging the fact that people “suffer according to God’s will” (1 Pet. 4:19) as surely as they are blessed by His gracious provision.

Don't resent it, because He doesn't want you to? The fact that it's all part of God's plan does not automatically yield that it would be a good plan, or one that would not be deserving of resentment.

In fact, in some way that is almost too difficult for us to grasp, if we are to know “the power of His resurrection” in our lives, it will be related to our experience of “the fellowship of sharing in His sufferings” (Phil. 3:10).

Ah yes, "the last shall be first" and all that. See, it's okay if children starve to death, or baby girls are raped by HIV positive men in sub-Saharran Africa, because (as long as our missionaries convert them during their short, ill lives filled with suffering and pain) they'll get the biggest mansions in heaven! (/sarcasm)

The Christians who lived in the difficult early days of the church grasped this perhaps better than modern-day Christians in the western world. They actually rejoiced after they were publicly flogged because they “had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name” (Acts 5:41).

And how many Muslim suicide-bombers have shouted, "Allah u'akbar!" (Allah is great!) moments before detonating themselves and all the people around them? Conviction of faith does not say anything of truth claims. Whether or not some early Christians got off on martyrdom has nothing to do with God's inaction in the face of natural disasters, rape, genocide, and all manner of human suffering.

When Jesus said in the Garden, “Not My will, but Thine be done,” He was not entering into a passive mode of resignation to inevitable circumstances. He was actively consenting to glad participation in the divine will.

I don't remember picking up "glad" in any of my readings of the Passion. Regardless, Jesus accepting the will of his father (who is himself) says nothing about whether or not God's plans are good.

We need to be careful at this point. For sometimes when we are exhorted, as in this article, to look positively at the difficult aspects of the divine will, we settle into an attitude rather like that of a rebellious teenager who chafes under parental discipline, and can’t do anything about it except project a constant attitude of disapproval of what she has to endure, and plays this one possibility to the hilt – technically submitting to the parental will, but realistically living in open, although muted, resistance to it and resentment of it.

Well it sounds like someone doesn't like teenagers a whole lot. I actively tell my son (who is a preschooler, and so falling into an earlier stage of separation from mommy's will) "You don't have to be happy about X" (going home from the playground, bathtime, whatever) "but you do have to hold mommy's hand and do this." I leave his emotions his own, and do not punish him for them. He is allowed to be angry, resentful, or disappointed in me. And because he has that freedom, when he does experience those emotions, he can tell me. We can talk about it, and work through it, and then he can begin to feel better. Just saying, "Don't resent pain you experience" denies someone the opportunity to work through that resentment, and reach something healthy beyond it. Short-circuitry in emotional health rarely yields the best results.

So try this. Next time God’s will and yours don’t see eye to eye, and before you get horribly bent out of shape, remind yourself that you don’t know all the circumstances so you can’t make a definitive assessment of the situation as to whether it is ultimately good or bad.

This is such bad advice. This is saying, "Don't fight the tide of your life." Don't get out of that abusive marriage; don't move so you can put your kids in a better school; don't look for the better job, certainly not after several unsuccessful interviews! It removes the impetus for human action; it is the opposite of the bootstrap. Try nothing, and call it God's will.

Then remember that God claims His will is “good, acceptable and perfect.” Give Him the benefit of the doubt and concentrate on the positive things that you know can come out of glad acceptance of His plan.

There are undoubtedly benefits to focusing on the positive aspects of life in tough situations; I do a lot of it. I suffer from depression and PTSD, as well as a few other mental illnesses. It's not a lot of fun, but I definitely try to make the most of it. That doesn't mean that it's better for me to have 5 mental illnesses than not. I think I'd personally prefer not to have these, as well as the assorted symptoms they carry. (Do night terrors sound like fun to you?) And as for giving God "the benefit of the doubt" it's really the benefit of belief Briscoe is specially pleading for. "Just trust that God is good and that everything will be okay." It is a lie, and I happen to believe that the vast majority of the time, the truth is preferable to a lie.

You may be surprised at the way life becomes less of a struggle and God’s will becomes less of a problem.

"Don't fight it, baby," said the rapist? I cannot see how the Christian god varies from such a beast in his totalitarian control and assumption of rights to everyone else's bodies and wills.

Why are all apologists so horribly victim-blaming? Because if they cannot blame us for our own suffering, they would have to blame their god, and they cannot do that. At least this one didn't spend all his time on Satan.

Read more!

Woman's Role in the Home pt. 2

This is part 2 of my response to Rachel Harkins on The Woman's Role. In our first installment of the HOME acronym, we made it through "H for Honour" - that's right, it's not just Honor, it's Honour with a U. Last time, Rachel wrote about god sometimes needing to "bring us to our knees" to us properly in submission. I'll let you fill in the imagery on your own.* Moving on.

O – One Flesh. Genesis 2:20-25 gives the account of God creating Woman. We know that Eve was created for Adam to be an help meet, according to verse 18. Then, in verse 23 we read Adam’s response when God brings Eve to him. In verse 24 we see how God describes the union of man and woman. He says that they shall be “one flesh”.

Not to go all grammar geeky, but I did copy edit my Giggy's manuscripts starting at age 10. The a/an rule for H is as follows: If the H is pronounced, say a; if it's silent, say an. I consider it an honor to be heading to hell in a handbasket. See how that works?

On to my actual substantive as opposed to neurotic notes, I have so much to say about what's wrong with Adam and Eve that I have posts here, here, here, and here on the subject. But I don't think I've really gone into the misogynistic qualities of the story yet, and this seems like the appropriate venue to do so. Notice we don't have Eve's response to Adam? We don't hear if Adam is pleasing to her, or if she desires him as a helpmeet, mate, lover, or spouse. We are told what the male god thinks and the male human. Of the woman, we aren't told her feelings or thoughts. What did Eve think of Adam or Eden or God? It's as if she had no desires or feelings of her own, which is of course the end aim of Quiverfull: Complete subordination of will to another. It's important within complimentarianism, when using rigid gender roles, to remind yourself that women are supposedly inferior to man - last made and first deceived. Surely, if men and women were really and truly equal, constant submission would never be approrpriate.

What does it mean to be “one flesh”? Several times in the New Testament, this term is mentioned in reference to a husband and wife, and each time, it speaks of two becoming one…..two individuals….man and woman…becoming one. When the two become one, there is now only one head….the husband. Ephesians 5:23 – “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: …” So, we’re not talking about some “two-headed” monster. Since the husband is to be the head of the home, the wife’s role in the home is to be in submission to her husband. Ephesians 5:22 – “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord”. To be in submission means “to yield, resign or surrender to the power, will or authority of another”.

Ugh, hang on a minute while I try not to vomit. (pause) Okay, I think I'll be okay. Imagine viewing cooperation as a "two-headed monster." Rachel here thinks having a say, a voice, a vote in her marriage would make things worse in her life. I don't want to yield, resign or surrender to the power, will, or authority of another. That's *slavery* and it's not something I'm going to sign up for! It bothers me to see so many who do.

Let me add right here, this is NOT just an outward act. True submission comes from within the heart. It’s very easy to submit on the outside and all the time be rebelling on the inside. If you are trying to live like that, I guarantee that you are having constant turmoil within. Real peace only comes when we acknowledge the God-given role of our husband as the head and we in submission to them.

This like telling a rape victim "Don't fight it." As soon as you quit trying to have any autonomy, then you'll feel better? Well, yes, in a way. Evolution has made us innately obedient in some capacities, with built-in deference to authority. Which is why it matters so much to me that we remove the illusion of authority from institutions and men who do not truly possess any. The fact that my ex-husband had a Y chromosome and a penis did not make him a good steward, decision maker, person, human being, or even mammal. (Even my cats hated him.) I saw him two days ago, on my way home from running errands, standing on the sidewalk, holding a sign advertising same day tax returns, in a Lady Liberty smock and funny hat and the sunglasses I bought him on our honeymoon. I cannot express how glad I am I did not submit to his will and authority. Since I left him, he has gone to jail 3 times for domestic battery against 3 different women (thank you, public records system.) Rachel is saying you should not only submit outwardly - allowing the Male One in all his penis-given wisdom to make every decision, without ever once complaining - but that you should also submit inwardly. Convince yourself this is what you want, and that it's nice not to have to make any decisions or be responsible for your own choices. Oh, and on a grammar note, I did not edit her work at all so each "..." was in this where I found it on LearntheBible.

Not only is there peace in submission, there is also protection. I wish I had been taught the BLESSING of submission as a young wife but unfortunately I am learning that many years later. Just a few years after we were married, God blessed us with our first child…..a new responsibility for both of us. One by one, as the babies came along, my responsibilities grew. In 1990, after much prayer, we began to homeschool our children. I now had a full-time/over-time “job” and I needed to realize my limitations. I just couldn’t do everything.

Being a mindless slave is the essence of letting go - in worship to god, in a submissive marriage, or in a BDSM dungeon. So is suicide. That doesn't mean it's a way to live your entire life, or that it's how every woman *should* live, for the crime of being a menstruating creature. Grrrrr. Moving on, God blessed them with an absence of contraception, check. Doing everything yourself in a marriage sucks, check. So is she gonna ask hubby to help out around the house or with the kids more?

I used to have a hard time saying “No” when asked to be in charge of or take part in a particular event. Because of this, I would find myself many times “in over my head” with responsibilities. Since the only kind of involvement our family had was church or homeschool related, these events were “good” in themselves but also very time-consuming. If you have ever found yourself in this situation, you will have to admit that most of the time some area will be neglected and many times it is your own family. It wasn’t until I really began to acknowledge in my heart that Jim was the head of our home, that I had the freedom to say “No” when needed. Before, when I was asked to do things I would either say “Yes”, knowing in my heart that I shouldn’t be taking on anything else, or I would say “No” and then worry about it for weeks. Now, I go to my husband and tell him the situation, we discuss whether I should or shouldn’t agree to something and then I can give an answer. Either, “Yes, my husband said I could” or “I’m sorry, my husband said he didn’t think I should be taking any more on right now.” When Jim discourages me from doing something, he is simply protecting me from “overloading” myself. The best part about this is that I can walk away with a perfect peace, knowing that I did the right thing. You may think this is silly, but it’s a blessing to me.

Yes, Master. Whatever you say, Master. She's just describing poor interpersonal boundries. Instead of learning to say no to people on her own, she completely gave up her personal boundaries between her and her husband and is allowing HIM to say no for her.

With submission there is an inner peace and there is protection. Let me add quickly about the protection. Since we are teaching courtship with our children as opposed to dating, our daughters have that protection knowing that any young man has to go through Daddy first. If God allows them to marry, that protection will be passed from Daddy to their husband.

Can't let the girls have a moment of freedom and independence - after all, if you did that they might never choose a life of submission and servitude.

So, being one-flesh with your husband, where two become one, means acknowledging that there is only one head now and that head is your husband as you submit inwardly as well as outwardly to him.

And here all those years I was a Christian, I thought it meant that once a couple got married they were gonna do it and make babies.

Quickly, I want to mention a few other things in reference to a woman’s role as a wife and then I’ll move on. Proverbs 31:11,12 says “The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.” Our husbands should not have to worry about their needs being met in the home, whether physical or material.

Okay there's a difference between being a trustworthy, loving partner (what that verse describes IMO) and pampering a grown man. The idea that after I've worked all day (trust me, what these Quiverfull women do all day in the home is some serious backbreaking work), I would want to follow someone around meeting their every desire (without, you know, EVER getting my desires met) is just... gross? Contemptible? Unappealing, to say the very, very least.

I Corinthians 7:3-5 says, “Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.” When two become one….one-flesh…their priorities change. They now should be concerned about pleasing their spouse.

No "Not tonight honey, I've got a headache." No "I'm nine months pregnant and I just don't feel like it". No "Get OFF me!!" You can only abstain from sex in the marriage if it is by consent of both partners, which means you can't say no. Yes, spousal rape can happen. Saying "I do" to wedding vows, despite what Rachel and the Bible (and the Koran) might say, does not mean you sacrifice all rights to personhood and physical safety. Whether you are a man or a woman, you deserve to be safe from violence and sexual assault, especially within your home. Verses, teachings, and mentalities like this create a culture where abuse is justified, and rape goes under-reported, and often untreated. And it sucks.

Verses 32-34 of that same chapter speaks on this: “But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. There is a difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.” Let me add right here. So many young unmarried adults, desiring to be married but waiting on the Lord, often wonder what exactly their “purpose” is as a single Christian. This passage deals with that question as well.

Wow, talk about a sweet deal for the menfolk! Now the way she's supposed to honor god is by making *you* god! Put up your feet honey. Here's a beer and a casserole and the remote. Would you like a backrub or a blowjob while you watch football? Hey, there's nothing wrong with offering your man (or woman) any of those things. Being nice is nice. Being enslaved, belittled, demeaned, and submitted isn't. It's the difference between living under an expectation and offering your lover a treat, acting out of a sense of obligation or a sense of gratitude.

And then, in the book of Titus, chapter 2, Paul lists characteristics and duties of both the aged and young men and women. Verse 4 says that the aged women are to teach the young women and one of the things they are to teach them is to love their husbands. How are they to teach this? I believe they are to teach by example. This may seem “elementary” to you…I would imagine that every married lady in here, if asked, would say, “Yes, I love my husband.” But, do our actions show it? Does our husband know that, after however many years of marriage, he’s still the most wonderful man….that you’d marry him all over again? Do your children know that Momma and Daddy love each other?

Well, those aren't the questions to start with. First you have to ask IS your husband the most wonderful man? WOULD you marry him again? DO you still love each other? You do have to ask those questions first. My ex-husband got furious, and played the hurt card, once when I "dared accuse" him of being a bad provider. He got all upset, wounded by my accusation - but it was true. The electricity got shut off that month, and I was working 30 hours a week, while doing all of the childcare, all of the housework, and about five loads of laundry per day (hello, cloth diapers, how I do not miss you even one teeny tiny bit.) There was no food in the fridge, but there was beer. Much more important than convincing my son or myself how in love with him I am, was getting the hell away from him, where I can freely hate him from a safe distance (although not nearly as distant as I would like.)

Also, Rachel is elevating the words of Paul to gospel (no pun intended.) She is acting as though his ideas on the role of women were God's. Possibly because I had a female preacher grandmother, or possibly because she actually told me this and I've just forgotten, but I always had the idea that what Paul said about women and families was his opinion, whereas what he said about Jesus (and what Jesus said about anything) where facts. Of course, I also thought Moses was a real guy and Jonah lived in a fish's belly, so it's not like I was totally rational and on top of things.

There's a long and badly told story about going to the Dollar Tree in the mall with her kids. I will spare you and pare it down.

Courtney wanted to show me a picture frame she had seen that was just “perfect” for Daddy and I... It looked just like a license plate…a red one with gold numbers and letters. The “license number” was NUTZ 4 U and the state was the “state of bliss”. I loved it! ... As I thought about this later, it thrilled my heart to know that our 20 year-old daughter knows that Momma and Daddy are still “nuts” about each other. I believe, aside from parents that truly love the Lord, the best gift you can give your children are parents that love each other.

The inside of me is screaming, so I'll try to remain calm. 1) Dollar Tree 2) Stupid novelty gift 3) The girl is 20 and lives at home and goes to the Dollar Tree in the mall with her mom and many siblings 4) Where she looks at gifts for her parents 5) because she isn't allowed to date and she isn't married yet. 6) Anybody else feeling all kicky?



Oh, and parents that love each other is probably more helpful than parents who love the lord, but what would be most beneficial would be parents who loved their children.

That's all for today! M-Mold Your Children (shudder) is coming up next and I have another Messin' with Mormons on my blog to-do list for the next month. I'm gonna be doing a podcast episode with Brian Sapient and Darth Josh of Rational Response Squad soon, and next week I'll be doing an interview with Cameron Reilly on No Illusions. Thanks to everybody for all your help getting the word out! I'll be sure to post everything here when it's available :D

* I mean scrubbing floors, you perv!

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Adam & Eve Sought Morality

Hey Anteaters. At least until after the move and getting myself set up in the new place (and setting up internet service there) I'm going to be sticking to video posts, because they are so much faster to make. Let me know what you think of these, any topics you'd like me to cover, or any tips you have for volume/recording that doesn't require me to buy equipment. (If you want to buy me equipment, I will totally let you.)

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Gazelles for the Slaughter

Anyone have $2500 to spare for my dentistry? Fifteen years of bulimia combined with 18 years of parental neglect (and a complete lack of insurance or money the past several years) has left me with more teeth that have cavities than don't, and four more that just plain need to get pulled out (in addition to the ones I had pulled four years ago.)

I am coming to the painful realization, yet again, as I seem to have to do every year or so, that what my mother means when she says she loves me isn't the same as what other mothers mean. Other moms take their kid to the dentist. Other moms figure out their kids have eating disorders. In the pro-ana movement, I was the only person I knew who had an eating disorder for more than three years as a minor without my parents figuring out something was wrong. At the time I thought I was just so clever, but in reality it was just easier for her to ignore my suffering than to do anything about it. Like my teeth - if I ignore them long enough, they'll all just rot away. She ignored me right into a series of high school suicide attempts, but somehow I survived that.

Today I hate my mother. I hate that she seriously considered spending $1500 to keep an elderly cat alive, yet I know if I call her and ask her to help with my dental bills, she won't do it. (In fact, she'll blame me for it, or tell me why I'm not trustworthy with money, or why I somehow deserve to not have teeth.) And it's not like she ever believed in faith healing for teeth. My whole childhood, she would take herself to the dentist, and have extensive (expensive) bridgework and fillings and crowns put in. I think she might have taken me in for cleanings and check ups three times my entire childhood. She didn't think God was going to protect my teeth, and she's known for years that I needed pretty extensive work to save the teeth I still have. She just doesn't give a damn.

My mother doesn't love me. My mother never loved me. My boyfriend* is gonna help me figure out how to pay for this, and he's not actually gonna let me go several more years watching my teeth rot away. It's baffling to me that someone I've known less than six months can care about my well-being. My family's known me my whole life, and they never did.

No real point to this post except to cry, and to remind myself later, next time I act like a battered spouse and want to "work things out" with her again. I just have to accept the fact that she was a *terrible* mother. She doesn't love me. And as much as I want to impress her or deconvert her or somehow get her to notice and love me, she won't do it. So it's probably not healthy for me to keep trying.

I've got an appointment with my therapist this afternoon - the therapist that my boyfriend willingly pays for, because he thinks it's important for me to not be overtaken with symptoms of mental illness all the time. Unlike my mom, who just tells me to control myself and quit being dramatic, and who I have told as recently as month ago how hard it is for me to be a good mother when I don't have my medication, and she said, "Oh, that sucks" and then continued to spend money like water on her own therapy, and trip to the cult survivors retreat (that I didn't get to go to.)

Crazy how finally having someone love me hurts so much. I guess I was still in denial about how bad of a parent my *mother* was, because it's so easy to blame everything on my grandmother, or my absent father. I think she broke me, too. I don't think it was just Gig. I don't think it was just my ex-husband. I think my mom was probably the first person who ever taught me that I don't matter and that my pain isn't real and shouldn't be addressed.

I want to go kick her in the teeth.



*Oh yeah. I guess I hadn't mentioned him on ATAT yet? Name's Dave. Sweetheart, awesome, funny, and a total dweeb (just my style). I wanted to wait a while, and get his okay before blogging him here.

**My Christian and former super-Christian readers probably realized this post's title was a (not very clever) take off of some Song of Solomons verses about his lady's sexy teeth. Clever comes after the novacaine wears off, okay?

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Soul for Supper

Obviously, I'm still having computer problems. (Would you believe the screen on the laptop broke?) I'm borrowing a laptop today and I'll do what I can but my obsessive blogging capabilities are a bit down at the moment. *sad face*.

Moving on: Since I'm here now, I thought I'd share with you something I wrote this morning. My mom had to put my cat December to sleep this week. He was 12 and a good cat, but crippled since birth and in increasing pain the past few months. My mom was so heartbroken over this cat's limp and I wondered, how can you care so much about a cat you don't even really like but it didn't matter for me to walk with a limp all through high school? I guess she doesn't think the cat is faking it for attention.

Someone eats your soul for supper and you wonder why it hurts

We battle one another, but grew up while viewing births

And I wonder if you'll ever love me, like I heard a mother should

Mom, I know you won't believe me, but I tried so hard to be good

But good enough's not good enough and perfect is impossible

I thought I was imaginary, turns out I'm just invisible. Invisible.

I reached out to hold your hand. When will you take mine?

And loving you is like self-defeat. It's only in my mind.

Who needs sleep when I can worry?

Who needs rest when I can hurry?
Who needs to eat when I can fake it?

Children need love, yet I made it.

Someone eats your soul for supper, and you wonder why it hurts

We tear each other down and our accidental births

And I wonder if you'll ever love me, like I heard a mother should

Mom, I know you won't believe me, but I tried hard to be good

Now I've found reality. It's painful, but I'd rather stay.

You can keep denying me, but I know I'll be okay. Someday.

I reached out to talk to you. When will you hear me?

You can't seem to see I'm real even when you're near me

Who needs sleep when I can worry?

Who needs rest when I can hurry?

Who needs to eat when I can fake it?

Children need love, yet I made it. Somehow.

Someone eats your soul for supper, and you wonder why it hurts

We poison one another. We've been dying since our births

What do you want to say to me if "Sorry" isn't what you speak?

You're cold as ice and hard as stone, afraid to feel will make you weak. And meek.

Who needs sleep when I can worry?

Who needs rest when I can hurry?

Who needs to eat when I can fake it?

Children need love, yet I made it.

Someone eats your soul for supper, and you wonder why it hurts

We sacrifice each other. We've been lambs and goats since birth.

Your mother never loved you and I'm not sure you know how...

Maybe the new computer set up will include a mic and I'll see if I can make a simple audio file of that. (And then one of you who is good with guitar or piano can help me make the notes actual music - please, maybe, with cherries?)

-------

From "Komarr" by Lois McMaster Bujold.

Stupid, irrational weeping. She muffled it in a towel, lest he, or Nikki, or her guests hear and investigate. I hate him. I hate myself. I hate him, for making me hate myself.

Most of all, she despised in herself that crippling desire for physical affection, regenerating like a weed in her heart no matter how many times she tried to root it out. That neediness, that dependence, that love-of-touch must be broken first. It had betrayed her, worse than all the other things. If she could kill her need for love, then all the other coils which bound her, desire for honor, attachment to duty, above all every form of fear, could be brought into line. Austerely mystical, she supposed. If I can kill all these things in me, I can be free of him.

I'll be a walking dead woman, but I will be free.

I only feel like this some days. I think my mom is a walking dead woman every day.

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Intervention and Parents Rights

I've been listening to old episodes of the Non-Prophets Radio podcast. (If you're not listening yet, it's your own fault. I've linked and embedded tons of Atheist Experience videos. Okay, okay, I forgive you. Go subscribe to the feed now and let us never speak of this unpleasantness again.)

The issue of intervention keeps coming up. When does the government, or we the people, or the US, intervene in how a family raises its children or how another nation treats its citizens? One of the four hosts, Shilling, (no longer on - I told you, these were archives) essentially takes a non-interventionist stance the majority of the time. He suggests the long-range approach of educating a culture, and essentially waiting things out for self-correction. He cites the decrease in racism and homophobia in younger generations as an example of this working in practice. And I have to say I agree with him up to that point.

Because I think the long-range plan is important and I do think it will work. I think history in a large sense shows that, our culture at least, is getting progressively more liberal and egalitarian. Neato. Swell. But in the meantime, if we use only the non-interventionist long-range approach, kids aren't getting vaccinated. Unassisted childbirth is killing mothers and babies.* Honor killings are happening in the United States. Parents treat their kids with unproven "natural" remedies rather than with FDA approved medicines. A little boy gets named Adolf Hitler (and his sister is named Aryan Nation.)

When are we gonna stop talking about parents rights and start talking about kids rights? I think part of the problem with the debate is that we act as if the two interested parties were the parents and the government. And of course, we object to the idea of a government raising its children - that falls under the domain of parenting. But the real nature of the issue is between the rights of the parents and the rights of the children. The government acts as attorney on behalf of the child, not as a direct antagonist to the parent. I get that now.

I was raised to fear HRS, so when they came to do an investigation, I lied. When my friend's mother told my mom I wanted to live with them, my mom told me she was playing arm chair psychologist, and that it was a common problem among psych students. That it didn't mean anything (like trying to get hit by a car when I was six didn't mean anything; or saying I needed therapy or I was gonna kill myself at 14 didn't mean anything; or saying that I had an eating disorder and that I was going to die if I didn't get help at 25 didn't mean anything).

I have to intervene for the kids right now. Fuck the long-range-only plan. Well-meaning high-minded secular and moderate religious people who were trying not to step on anyone's toes or interfere with anyone's parental rights let me get beaten, brainwashed, and Bible-fed. I didn't get to form my own personality and identity as a human. I was raised in a cult, like being a borg or a clone. I'm having to figure this shit out (who I am, what I value, what my own personality is) now and I'm 26 and I have a 4-year-old kid. It's kind of terrifying sometimes to realize how little I know and how far behind I am. I got cheated out of a childhood and it's seriously affecting my adulthood. And now I find out there's no afterlife, so this is the only shot I'm ever gonna get.

We can't sit by and let other kids have their psyches destroyed. I can't really express enough just how crazy I am and how uncomfortable the inside of my brain is. I have a really high IQ. (I don't remember the number; it was over ten years ago. I was in Mensa but we quit paying dues.) If I'd been raised in a healthy home, I'd probably be a doctor or a lawyer or a civil rights activist or married. Not unemployed and semi-agoraphobic. This isn't a pity party. I'm good at getting through shit - I have a lot of practice. (And hey, unemployment checks are the bomb. I consider that my salary for writing on my book.)

It's just that I can't not care. I can't pretend kids aren't dying from medical negligence homicide (AKA "prayer"). I know there's this huge Quiverfull generation coming up now, and a lot of those kids are growing up in abusive homes; they're learning misogyny and rigid gender roles; and they're not getting a proper education. Let's stop that. Let's stop the people who do that. I don't want go so far as making people get a license to have a kid. I get why we can't do that (examples: majority Christian licensing board = no atheists getting baby licenses; eugenics). But we have to get these religious exemption laws off the books. We have to stop acting like it's okay for people to pray, when we know that prayer prevents positive action. We need to recognize and vocalize that faith is not a virtue. Faith is a vice.





* Both those stories are in Australia. The homebirth movement in Australia is largely due to my grandmother (and here)and Nancy Campbell. (On Nancy's Facebook she asks for money for a broken arm; yet she rolls with faith healers.)

** I have no idea what language the image captions are in. But it translates to: kids have a right to food, clean water, an education, passport or national identity (refugees), family, I think happiness?, exercise/entertainment, and to be clean; and a right to not be amputated, armed, enslaved, or abused. I think it speaks across culture and language - don't you?

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Prayer Bugs Me

My mother never pried. She had faults as a mother, but invasion of privacy was never one of them. She knew the importance of private thoughts. While I think her unwillingness to pry into my feelings left her unaware of the pain and mental confusion I was in for a long time, I have to say I value and respect the choice she made to let me be my own person, with my own thoughts and feelings. I could leave my diary open on the coffee table and know that she'd never read it.

Yet, I always felt better writing outside of the house, somewhere secret and quasi-magical. It was down by the blackberry patch at the creek when I was a small child, then onto a copse of trees beside a frozen golf course waterfall at the first place in Iowa, and either in a tree at the edge of a cornfield or on top of a wall holding back a hill from a parking lot at the second place in Iowa. When we first moved back to Florida, in to the apartments, I would sit beneath the willow tree on the bank of the man-made lake; once we moved into the house in the suburbs, I sat at on the dock at the riverfront park down the road.

So it shouldn't have surprised me, at 20 years old and living in my own place, that I still might feel the need to leave to write in peace. I remember crying, gasping in big tantruming toddler gulps of air, sobbing out loud to Jesus. "They say you won't give me more than I handle, but I'm telling you, I can't handle this! It's too hard. It never gets any easier and it never gets any better. Every time I think it's gonna get better, it just gets worse, and I'm tired of fighting all the damn time!" At the time, I was crying about money and how there just didn't seem to be enough of it. At other times, I cried nearly the exact same script, at the end of my rope, utterly desperate, crying heavenward and begging for mercy. Sometimes things would seem to get a little bit better following one of these break downs, but I didn't seem to be getting spiritual fruit or reaping any benefit for the trials I was going through. I was under the impression that when God tested you, when He gave you all that you could handle, when you survived it, you were rewarded for remaining faithful. Wasn't that the whole point of Job?

I feel sad and betrayed when I look back on those times. I knew that I needed help to carry life's burdens, but because I thought God was going to do that - and when there were only one set of footprints in the sand, that meant He was carrying me - I didn't look hard enough at the resources around me. Two weeks later, one night instead of calling on God, I called the suicide hotline. I'm typing this today because that was the right choice. It would still be another year till I got my first mental health diagnosis, and another five years till I found the right combination of diet, exercise, sleep, and medication, but it was a start. I was beginning to deal with my problems, instead of waiting on God to fix my breakfast.

Because God was nothing more than a voice in a head, He could never offer any comfort I wasn't capable of giving myself, or any insight I was incapable of having. Reliance on God, in mental and emotional anguish as in all things, caused me more pain. When I depend on God, when I say "It's all in His hands", I stop taking positive actions in my own life.

I would have gotten a therapist, a diagnosis, and medication sooner if I hadn't been raised in a faith healing cult, certainly. But I think I would have got them sooner still if I hadn't been raised a believer. I hate prayer now. It actively infuriates me when people bow before an imaginary construct, grovel and beg NOTHING, to fix their problems instead of working to fix them themselves.

I still struggle with money and I still struggle with a list of mental disorders. I am still crazy. But I don't have to beg any god to make me sane now - I can take medications, make alterations to my lifestyle, avoid certain foods. I can manage my life without a higher power. Believing in one hindered my drive for self-sufficiency and kept me dependent and child-like long past the time the world expected me to behave as an adult.

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Troubled Teen Programs Kill

So I've finally gotten around to putting together the latest petition (It's in the box and right here.) This is one is being sent to Senators and the POTUS. From the CHILD (the agency responsible for getting this bill through the House, and an awesome advocacy group) website

At this moment, I feel the need to let my readers know, cults aren't always religious. It's easy for us to look at the Moonies, Heaven's Gate, and the FLDS Mormons and say, "Yup, that's a cult." What I find a lot of people have difficulty with is recognizing the non-religious (or psuedo-non-religious, like Alcoholics Anonymous) cults in their midst.

Teen "rehab" boot camps, wilderness camps, and other residential facilities, are by and large cults. They follow the model, techniques, and even buzz words of Synanon (which eventually changed its name to the Church of Synanon and is listed as a cult by the reliable Apologetics Index. Oh, and they did church-wide wife swapping.)

Reason Online and Mother Jones each did stories on the teen correctional industry in 2007, following the well publicized torturing death of 14-year-old Martin Lee Anderson. Anderson was placed in a wilderness camp in Florida, following a trespassing violation. Within three hours of arriving, he had stopped breathing. He was pronounced dead by hospital staff early the following morning. He was kicked, punched, and beaten to death in an effor to "break him" of his "defiance".

Looking at this list of groups classified as cults, it's strange how many I recognize, and how the name of a group will bring up a full catalog of facts, back story, and death toll in my head. It's like seeing old enemies in your high school yearbook - you never liked them, but you share a history. Sure, I expect to

I think, in part, I study cults because I'm still llloking for the place I belong. I had that need - to be part of the group, the family - instilled so strongly as a child, but I was and still am weird, and I have gaps in my pop culture memory, and I was taught how to control sheep rather than how to love friends. I have a greater need to belong and less capabaility. So I look for other cult survivors, and I find them. From the eastern transcendental cults to the Bible based fringes of non-denominationalism to tough love teen boot camps. And once I find them, I try to help them. I try to raise awareness, raise funds, and raise outrage. Once you're pissed, you're motivated.

So sign my damn petition. Call your Senator, or hey, call mine. Let them know you object to non-evidence based treatment protocols being used in sentencing or diversionary programs (the "instead of jail" route), and that you want stricter oversight for residential facilities housing teens. Ask them to sponsor or co-sponsor HR 911, which is currently languishing in the HELP committee. Tell them you think it's wrong for teenagers to be beat to death by cult members.

Also, check out Kids of El Paso, about one particular Synanon clone and what went on there. The front page advises former program teens who are contemplating suicide to contact the national Suicide Hotline. Sometimes, when I feel like nobody else knows what it's like to grow up in a cult, I remember that I'm an idiot, and that a lot of us are struggling in secret - hidden in plain sight.

To any of my readers who are fellow survivors, hello. I'm glad you're here. I hope this blog helps and I always answer private emails. Let me know what you'd like me to add to the blog or any questions you have. We're not alone.

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Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 5

This time I decided to approach the debate as a guy (since they won't talk to Angie anymore). Let's see if "Mike" can get further with this misogynist sect.

You are speaking live with Austin, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Austin: hello, how can I help you?

Me: Hi I've got a question about the devil.
Why did God make the devil?


Austin: what kind of question?
(We've got a slow reader, slow typer, or slow internet connection here.)

Me: Why did God make the devil?

Austin: we don't believe that He did
(WTF? I learn new things about mormons every time I do these chats.)

Me: I thought god created everything
Where did the devil come from?
(Pause during which I cleaned up maybe a quarter of my son's toys.)

Austin: the Bible calls the devil a "fallen angel"

Me: oh sure, of course not. but he made him when he was still an angel right?

Austin: we all have the ability to choose who/what kind of person, etc we will be

Me: Can god destroy the devil, now that he is fallen?

Austin: this part is harder for a lot of people to grasp, but we actually believe that if anything has the ability to think and reason for itself- then God did not create that reasoning part- He created a body to house that reasoning
(Huh??)

Me: So God just makes our bodies, not our brains and minds?

Austin: well.. technically our brains are part of our bodies- but our minds, right. The part that allows us to think for ourselves and make decisions and reason, etc. That part of us is eternal

Me: So our minds are eternal, but God didn't make them? Then where did they come from?
And did the devil's mind come from the same place?

Austin: God's goal, everything He does, is that we (our intelligence or whatever you wish to call it) can become more like He is and experience the joy that He does, etc.
we don't know

Me: well, this is all very interesting. but back to the devil - since he has chosen to be fallen, or whatever, why doesn't god just smite him?

Austin: and yes, the devil is included in that. Eternity is something that is hard, maybe impossible for us to grasp. In Eternity, I don't think there is any "come from"

Me: So nothing really made our minds, they just always existed?

Austin: God has a perfect plan, which is in place. it began long before He created the world and will continue until the final resurrection. Before then, everything that needs to happen will... everything will be worked out before the end.
As far as we know, yes

Me: but if god knows everything that will ever happen, why did he let the devil tempt Eve in teh garden and make mankind fall?

Austin: the fall is actually part of the plan

Me: It is?

Austin: God knows what will happen. He doesn't stop it, but He does make a way for us to overcome it.
The important principle is agency
(Free will alert! Free will alert!)

Me: Agency?

Austin: God won't stop us from making our own decisions- and suffering the consequences
but He gives us opportunities to learn about consequences before we make decisions

Me: and he won't stop the devil from making his own decisions and letting all of us suffer the consequences, right?

Austin: He gives us the Gospel, and the Holy Ghost so that we will know which decisions will bring happiness, and which won't
that's correct. Instead, He gives us tools to use so that we can avoid the traps of the devil

Me: But after the Fall we're all cursed. We don't live in the garden, men have to work and women suffer pain in childbirth, right?
Even though only Adam and Eve had agency in that, we all suffer the consequences.

Austin: we actually look on the fall as a necessary step in God's plan
(Then it's a STUPID plan!)

Me: but why couldn't he have just I don't know made the garden without the tree or without the devil? Then people would still have agency but we wouldn't suffer from disease and pain.

Austin: if they hadn't been banished from the Garden of Eden, we know that they wouldn't have been able to have children... and none of us would be able to get a body. A physical body and a mortal life are necessary steps to becoming more like God
we must endure pain sometimes so that we can learn to fully appreciate joy and happiness

Me: They couldn't have kids in the garden? But God made Adam out of dust and Eve out of his rib. So we could still have had physical bodies without leaving the Garden.
Some pain, sure, but not kids starving to death around the world. I don't see how that helps anyone appreciate joy and happiness.

Austin: may I share with you a passage of scripture that explains this principle of being free to choose?

Me: sure

Austin: link
That becomes the question, then.. how much suffering isenough? Luckily we don't hav eto understand that. We only have to learn to trust that God is in control and that things will work out. He gives peace to our souls if we trust and follow Him.
That is one part of the power of the Holy Ghost- to bring peace to our souls despite trials, etc.

Me: Well I read the article, but a lot of it is confusing to me

Austin: I understand

Me: Why did God design a system where mankind had to fall? Why couldn't he make people able to grow and have kids and learn and progress, but still stay safe and happy in the garden? why make things so that innocent children starve to death?

Austin: this part is hard at first for a lot of people, but as you study the plan as a whole- and continue to pray and ask God for His help in understanding, etc.- it will continue to make more sense

Me: well since it makes sense to you, maybe you can explain it to me? I thought God was all powerful. Shouldn't a wise, eternal, all-powerful god be able to make a better system than this one?

Austin: you have to remember that He didn't create the part of us that is 'us'-the unique core of us. His plan is the only/best way to take us from where we were before to where we can have the joy that God has.
If He could have, He would have
this must be the best possible system
(Must be because my god is a little god.)

Me: He's limited in his power?

Austin: He can do everything that can be done, but there must be Eternal laws that GOd is subject to (must like we are subject to the laws of physics). but these Eternal laws are things like justice, balance, etc.

Me: God is subject to Eternal laws? Well, did someone or something cause these laws to exist, or do they supersede God?

Austin: we don't know. It's back to the "Eternal" thing again

Me: well this is really interesting. I've never heard this idea of things being more eternal than God.
Is God more powerful than the devil?

Austin: nothing is MORE Eternal
either it's Eternal or it isn't
I don't think there can be degrees of Eternal

Me: okay good point :)
(This is probably my own Christian childhood. I was taught we had eternal souls, from the moment of conception moving forward, but not backward in time.)

Austin: but this is really turning into a more philosophical speculative conversation than what is actually the purpose of this site

Me: Oh well I just... I guess I don't understand why a loving god would let kids starve to death for some master plan. I have one kid and I'd never let him starve no mater what

Austin: there is a lot we cannot understand about God and the Eternal nature of things- but we do know is important
and that is outlined here on this website
I encourage you to continue to read through the outlines here

Me: Maybe I just love my son more than God loves us?
(I do.)

Austin: and we can clarify any questions you have about what you read
that's definitely not the case. God's love is perfect. (NOT!)But He does understand things better than we do

Me: I don't know, I think I understand suffering better than he must

Austin: at some level- and that level might be different for different people- we have to put our trust in God's hands

Me: I do everything in my limited power to stop it, he doesn't

Austin: and understand that as Isaiah and Proverbs teach us-His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, etc.

Me: Higher or just different? It seems like Higher would mean better, and better would be less kids starving to death

Austin: I would not underestimate what God understand=)
*understands

Me: Maybe if he cures all the disease in the world, or ends hunger I'll believe. I can't understand worshiping a god that lets innocent people hurt so much

Austin: hold on a moment
I have to go help some new missionaries
would you like to wait? or can I transfer you to another representative who can teach you what we believe about how to gain trust in God and His plan even if we don't understand it all?

Me: Either one would be great

Austin: ok, one moment
Has transferred you to: Kendall

You are speaking live with Kendall, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is provided for assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Kendall: Hey Mike give me a moment to read the conversation to ceath up

Me: Sure thing

Kendall: Alright Mike so if I understand correctly you have a qusetion still about why God lets us suffer?

Me: And why he won't just destroy the devil

Kendall: there is actually a scripture in The Book of Mormon that explains this perfectly
are you familiar with the Book of Mormon at all?

Me: no, not really

Kendall: The Book of Mormon is similar to the Bible meaning that it is another witness of Jesus Christ's life and minestry. However it was written by the people who lived in aincent America, in 6000 B.C.

Me: okay

Kendall: Just like the book of James or John in the Bible, the Book of Mormon has other books such as a section called the Book of Nephi
Nephi was a prophet who was taught by God and here is what he has to say about why we must suffer.
Link

Me: Okay - let me read this first
(Now my son wants pancakes, so the ultimate multi-tasking adventure begins)
it basically looks like it says that everything happens in balance? like there has to be evil for good to exist?

Kendall: that is exactly right
imagine never knowing pain, or sorrow
how could you then know joy and peace?

Me: well, actually I think so. Some people have pretty good lives all the way through, and they're happy. Other people have lives that are mixes of pain and happiness

Kendall: That is true, it always does seem like that on the surface. But I promise you that everyone goes through trials in their lives, they just might not be that visible to others. Do you remember the story of Job from the Bible?

Me: well okay but I'm not asking about minor troubles. I'm asking about kids starving to death.

Kendall. So why would God allow his children to die, if He loves them?

Me: yes, exactly. because I would do everything in my power to keep my son from starving or dying or suffering

Kendall: If I had a son, I would do the exact same thing. But if you were to solve every problem that your son has, then how could he learn?

Me: I'm not saying every problem. I'm saying those ones - starving, dying, and suffering. God is supposed to be more powerful than I am, but he lets people starve, die, and suffer. Why?

Kendall: Are you familiar with what happened to God's son Jesus Christ when he was on earth?

Me: yeah, and that's something else I don't get. Why kill his own son? He's the one who set up the system. Why not make a system that doesn't require a blood sacrifice?

Kendall: God created a plan so that we could return and live with Him, but this could only be possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

(Now my neighbor is here. She has a job interview so I'm watching her son for a little bit. While making debating mormons - and making pancakes. Why do I have the feeling this won't end well?)

Me: It seems like if I had been all powerful and all knowing, I'd come up with a different system. Heck, I'd do anything to avoid having my son tortured, beaten, and hung to death.

Kendall: I think for the most part we would all feel the same way. However before Christ left this life, He said to the God, "father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Even after Christ was tourtured, and spit upon, and forsaken by His own people
He still only cared about us

Me: I'm not questioning Christ's love for us. I'm questioning God's love for both Christ and us

Kendall: alright, and that is a doubt that most people have.

Me: How do you get beyond that doubt to trust him?
(Crap! Pancakes are burning. Time to take them off the stove.)

Kendall: So imagine knowing that your family is introuble, and the only way to help them is by sending your only son to them. But you know that he will suffer beyond comprehension, would you till send your son to them?
(Christian neighbor mom totally, unquestioningly answered the same. "NO!" It's a non-brainwashed thing.)

Me: No, because I'm his mother. He's an innocent and he depends on me.
*father
(At this point, I was sure I'd blown it. They MUST realize I'm actually female - right?)

Kendall: But why did God send his son, when Christ never sinned nor did anything wrong in his life knowing of all the things that will happen to His son?

Me: I don't know. It doesn't make sense to me. Why couldn't he just make us good, or forgive us? How does torturing someone (or letting him be tortured) make the rest of us less sinful?

Kendall: Because God cannot, nor will he control us. That was Lucifer's plan. The only possible reason is Love.

Me: LOVE?
Letting children starve to death is part of a plan for love? Having his own son brutally murdered is love?

Kendall: We might not understand right now, but we must first trust in God. There will always be doubts, the doubts never go away. It only becomes a probelm when the doubts overweigh the truth.

Me: How can you trust a God who allows so much wickedness as part of his plan? It just doesn't seem right to me to trust someone who has the power to stop evil, but won't do it.
Why won't god destroy the devil?

Kendall: Life would deffinetly be a lot easier, and because life would be so easy that we would not grow as much as we could if their was no trials.

Me: But maybe we wouldn't be so broken either. And kids who starve to death never have a chance to grow - they're dead. Why won't god destroy the devil? We could still grow and learn without him, and it would probably be easier to love each other and be good to one another if we weren't tempted to be wicked

Kendall: In the Bible Christ is always tell us to help the poor and the needy. Maybe it is not God but the people in the World who are letting the children starve.
(Capital "W" in World concerns me.)

Me: It's both. But people only have so much power - go is all powerful. Surely he could make more food or help crops grow better or something like that. That wouldn't even interfere with agency, it would just mean there was enough food for everybody, in all places. Can't he do that?

Kendall: Of course He could, but how could that help the world for the greater good? sure people would not be hungry or dieing, but how does that help the people who wont help, who wont donate to the needy, who wont asist the poor?

Me: Are you saying God cares more about the people who won't help than the people who are starving?

Kendall: not at all, but that that is where the bigger problem is
It is already in our power to help them
just that most people choose not to

Me: But if no one was starving, it wouldn't matter if some people weren't helping. Right now people aren't helping and so other, innocent people have to suffer. And God has the power to stop, but won't. How is that loving or just or balanced?
Do Mormons send food to starving people?

Kendall: Ofcourse we do, tons
the first sunday of every month we have something called fast sunday

Me: That's really good. I think it's important to help starving people. I just don't understand why God doesn't seem to think that it's as important as you Mormons do, or as I do. Can you explain this to me because it doesn't make sense to me?

Kendall: God does care, that is why He commands us to do it. Who better to take of the poor than their own brothers and sisters? We have all already been given so much by God that he expects us to be the one to help them.

(Boys! Quit hitting each other. One of you can bounce on the trampoline and one of you can play with the fire truck. DON'T throw the fire truck!)

Me: God would be better at it, because he could fix the problem all at once. He's all powerful. He can get into countries that have secured border, where humanitarian aid can't go. He could take care of the people he created (their bodies at least) better than we can because he isn't limited like we are

Kendall: That is why we must learn how to do it.

Me: We must learn how to do it, because God can but he won't?

Kendall: But through the people who are doing it, in a way, isn't God himself doing it

Me: No! The people are doing it. If God was doing it himself, it would be a big miracle, like turning 7 loaves of bread and 2 fish into enough to feed the crowds listening to Jesus speak. Why won't he do that with starving African children now?

Kendall: Link

Me: I think it's good and valuable that you help. I also like that the Jews, Chrsitians, Catholics and Muslims help. But why doesn't God just fix it?
And why won't he just destroy the devil?

Kendall: Our church is only 15.5 million to 6.75 billion people in the world, yet look at how much we have tried to help

Me: I think that's excellent. I just wish your god was as good to humanity as you are.
If he has the power to destroy the devil, why won't he do it?

Kendall: I can totally understand why this is such an important topic to you. And if it was just as important to you as it was to everyone else, then their would be no starvation in the world.
as for the Devil, he has no power over us. It is only when we allow him to
So why would God destroy him?

Me: Because he is evil. And evil should be eliminated, don't you think?

Kendall: He has given us all we need to over come the devil. The rest is up to us.

Me: It seems like God set us up so that most people would fail. How many people are there on earth, and how many will make it to heaven?

Kendall: He has already done his part to give us a way to make it to heaven. It is not Him, but ourselves that is keeping us from going to heaven.

But the way he gave us lets most people fall through the cracks

Kendall: It is because the people Chose to not follow God

Me: If God is all powerful and all knowing, why not make a system that fewer people fail at? If he loves us, but most of us don't make it to heaven, why doesn't he change the plan?

Kendall: The plan is perfect, does it not make sense as to why we fail?

Me: The plan where kids starve to death and his own son is a blood sacrifice is perfect? I don't agree

Kendall: But what happened to his son after his death?

Me: Well he went to hell for two days, but god sends his other children - us- to hell for eternity all the time. Which just doesn't seem loving at all to me
There's absolutely nothing my son could do that would make me torture him for even one second, much less forever

Kendall: He didn't go to hell, infact he is given everything that the father has

Me: but what about people god does send to hell. Aren't we all god's children?
(Neighbor-mom is back. Time to take the little ones outside for a minute.)

Kendall: Your questions are important to me, thanks for sharing, but I know that God's plan was perfect. He knew that His son had to suffer because he loves us. If Christ didn't pay for our sins, there would be no hope for us to even be with God.
Think about that, we sin and are so imperfect and God has provided a way for us to be clean and return to Him. Instead of criticizing his plan, we should be grateful that He has provided a way for us to return through His Son

Kendall: Has transferred you to Nathan

You are speaking live with Nathan, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Nathan: Hello, hang on a second... I have a few other people I am helping right now and I'll be with you in a minute...

Nathan: Has transferred you to Shawn

You are speaking live with Shawn, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.

Shawn: Hello?

Me: Hi Shawn?
(I've been outside for 15 minutes. Surely they've hung up on me.)

Shawn: Yes. How can I help you?
(Whoa! They'll stick around FOREVER if you're a MAN.)

Me: Hi Shawn. I just have one question. Why hasn't God destroyed the devil?

Shawn: Because he is necessary to our growth and learning. Our purpose on this earth is to learn to distinguish between good and evil. Choosing good leads to happiness, joy, and freedom. Choosing evil leads to captivity, and misery. There must be opposition.
There will always been good and evil because there will always be agency and opposition.

Me: Do you think it's possible to distinguish between good and evil without following the Mormon faith?

Shawn: Yes. All men have been given the Light of Christ - which is like a ingrown knowledge, or conciounce. However, when one repeatedely goes against that light and chooses to do wrong, that light dims and it is then harder to distinguish.

Me: Okay so if someone follows his moral center, and does what is right his whole life, will he go to heaven?

Shawn: Doing what is right all of your life is one necessity and step you must take, but it must be accompanied with certain ordinances. For none can enter the Kingdom of God save through faith in Christ, baptism, and repentance.
We believe in three different Kingdoms of Heaven - the Celestial (Highest), the Terrestrial, and the Telestial. All ordinances must be performed to enter the Celestial.

Me: So if someone is born in say Laos and he's a good man and kind and does what is right, but he never gets baptized or has faith in Christ - what happens to him?

Shawn: ALL men will be given the opportunity to accept Christ and be baptized. All will hear the Gospel and have the opportunity to accept Christ and the ordinances before they are Judged and placed into a Kingdom of God.

Me: Like, after they die but before they go to one of the levels of heaven or to hell?

Shawn: Yes. Exactly

Me: Well, that seems good. But then why bother to do missionary work here on earth?
If God will give everyone a chance later, maybe we should just concentrate on being good people and worry about heaven and hell after we die.

Shawn: Because this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God. That is the whole purpose of our time here. And we are the exact same after we die - we leave this world with the same knowledge, thoughts, beliefs.

Me: Wait, so we're exactly the same, then will people make different choices when they're given that last opportunity to hear the Gospel, or will they hold onto the beliefs they had on earth?
(Because otherwise, atheists are right. We can wait till we're dead to commit - the Mormon God is actually allowing for disbelief due to lack of evidence up UNTIL judgment!)

Shawn: They could do either. But their feelings they had while on earth are the same. Yet, just like hearts and attitudes can be changed here, they could be changed there as well. It is really up to the person.
(WTF? Better steer this conversation somewhere that isn't totally foreign to me.)

Me: But I still don't see why the devil is necessary for growth and learning. Good can exist without evil. Evil can exist without good.
If good depended on evil to BE good, then that would mean God depends on the devil to BE god. And that doesn't make sense to me at all.

Shawn: Could you ever know really what happiness is if you never experienced grief, pain and sorrow?
Could you know something was hot if you had never felt cold?
All things are relative to their opposition and the things around them.

Me: Yes, I think so. My son has had a very good life, and he is happy everyday.
He doesn't need to hurt to know what it feels like to not hurt. He doesn't need to starve to know that it feels good to have a healthy meal.

Shawn: Link
The highlighted verses should explain the concept

Me: Kendall sent the same verse. It says everything happens in balance, but I don't think that's true.

Shawn: If your son knew NOTHING except a good meal - did not even know there existed anything different - he could not comprehend what a bad meal was.

Me: Like I just said, my son doesn't need to feel starvation to know eating food is good. Our brains send us signals that we like food and so we eat it.
So what's the harm of not comprehending a bad meal?

Shawn: Well then he cannot be truly happy - maybe he feels he is happy, or balanced, but there is more happiness out there than he knows
Because then you cannot experience FULL happiness.
He is content, but he is not reaching the full possibility of joy, happiness and knowledge.

Me: Maybe the happiness that doesn't require suffering, starvation, pain, and death of innocent children across the world is a BETTER kind than the "full" happiness you're describing.

Shawn: Ignorance is bliss

Me: It makes no sense that you have to experience pain to be happy. You have to experience pain to be miserable, I'll grant you that.
Yes and bliss is another word for happy

Shawn: So if he only knew pain and suffering, then he should be content and blissful as well. What you are saying implies that they are opposite.
(No shit happiness and misery are opposites. Heck, Noggin cartoons establish that lesson daily before 9 a.m. Mormon = moron right about now.)

Me: NO! He'd be miserable. Pain and suffering cause misery. Safety, protection, and provision cause happiness.

Shawn: If we were all only ever sad and pained and so forth, then we would still be content
(Sheltered, brainwashed, CLUELESS Shawn.)

Me: No, we wouldn't be.
Because people who grow up in abusive homes, and don't know anything but sadness and pain, they are not content. They are miserable.

Shawn: They only cause misery because we know that we are miserable because we know we are not happy - because we know the difference.

Me: Parents who lose their children to AIDS and starvation in Africa, who only know pain and suffering, they are not happy. They are miserable.

Shawn: If there was not a difference, it would not matter what we experienced - it would be the same.
(Gee, if there was no difference rape would be as okay as not rape. Well duh! There IS a difference. The presence of lovemaking isn't what makes rape bad. Rape makes rape bad. Starvation is not what makes food good.)

Me: Shawn what you're saying makes no sense.
Pain = bad, not pain = good.

Shawn: Because they know of something different- they talk to people who are different, they see difference on tv, they know difference.

Me: You don't have to break one ankle to know that the other one is healthy

Shawn: They know difference thought because of this Light of Christ which is given to all men

Me: Why is knowing the difference more important than just being "content" in the Garden of Eden, or just going straight to heaven? Why make some people suffer unimaginable pain so that others can experience more joy and contentment?
That's not loving. That's God picking favorites. (Which He does in the Bible - chosen people and such.)

Shawn: You should pray about this, with real intent, truly wanting the answer, and you will get one. (AKA - I don't have an answer. Ask Magic Man.)

Me: Have you gotten one when you prayed about this?

Shawn: I know that God is our Father and he wants us to experience full joy. I know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I know that we are here for a purpose and that God has a plan for each of us. I know that God's plan is perfect.
Yes, I have. I know it as a fact. That is how real my answers have been.

Me: What do you know of starving children who die in the desert?
or kids who are beaten in foster homes?
How is that part of a perfect plan?

Shawn: God knows and loves them.

Me: Love means taking care of someone. Love means trying to stop needless suffering.

Shawn: We do not know all things God knows.

Me: I don't claim to know all things God knows. But I know that if *I* was all powerful, I'd put an end to starvation.

Shawn: Do you attend church now?

Me: What does that have to do with the continued existence of the devil, or God's ambivalence to human suffering?

Shawn: I know that God's plan is perfect. I have no doubt. I know that God knows all things and all things will be made right in the end.

Me: So it's okay for thousands of children to suffer and die for the "greater good" of God's plan?

Shawn: I don't know. I just know God loves His children.

Me: Love means not letting someone starve to death.
If God' plan is love, then it's seriously overrated.

Shawn: Part of his love is our agency. He cannot stop us from making choices.
(Here we go again with free will...)
If a father chooses to beat his child, that is his choice, and God respects agency.
(WTF? I seriously did not see this coming!)

Me: What child born in a 3rd world country, already infected with HIV, has agency?
God respects beating your kids?
If you knew a man was beating his children, would you try to stop him?

Shawn: This life is but a small part. We will live for eternity.

Me: If you saw your neighbor beat his child, would you try to stop him?

Shawn: I know all of this is true. I have prayed, I have felt greater joy than I have ever known. It is clear we have different beliefs. I respect yours. We are both rooted in our opinions. So this conversation must come to an end.

Me: If you say your neighbor beat his child, would you try to stop him? Just please answer that
My opinion is the moral one that does not try to excuse an unjust god.

Shawn: Have a nice day!

What have I learned? Shawn was by far the most brainwashed. "I know I'm right because I know I'm right because I know I'm right." Circular logic blows. Apparently Mormons are waaaaay more off from the Christianity I'm more familiar with than I'd realized. God didn't make our "selves" just our bodies? Seems like a god that didn't do that part shouldn't get to screw with us as much as he does, in that case. He should only have jurisdiction or guardianship over the physical self. And what's up with god being subject to "eternal laws"? That's different. Of course, all religions are weird and only the one you grew up with seems semi-normal. But still, there was a lot more Scientology similarities than I'd expected. And most important of all: Mormons will spend literally 2 hours talking to a man, trying to persuade him, but will log off lickety-split from a woman who disagrees.

Read more!