I was baptized at six, in the pool of a fellow church member one Sunday afternoon, after repeatedly begging my mother for the honor. The fundamentalist churches of my childhood didn't have infant baptisms ("sprinklings"); we had adult baptisms ("dunkings"). It was a decision to be made by the person being baptized ("dunked"), not their parents. Of course, six was really too young to make that choice either. I hadn't explored any other options and thought of baptism as just one of several life steps I was supposed to take at some point. Why wait till seven?
Then when I went to Vineyard as a teen, I perceived a rise in "baby dedication" ceremonies. Shiny new evangelical families could "dedicate" their baby. I don't know if this was supposed to cover some of the same "what if a kid dies before being saved?" issues infant baptism is supposed to address or not. It made me really uncomfortable. Here we were - a congregation of people who had chosen to follow Christ, who read and knew His words, and did not believe that infant baptisms were religiously correct. But it was clear to me on some level that baby dedications were infant baptisms, minus the water.
The same people who absolutely cannot comprehend arranged marriage, try to arrange their children's religion. Oh sure, pick your own wife - that's love! That's romance! That's part of Western culture! But picking your own god? Nah, your parents don't trust you enough for *that*. Or maybe they don't trust God enough to think he'll care for their baby if there hasn't been some obeisance made to him, publicly and ritually. Still, the Vineyard baby dedications didn't really bug me. They were ultimately sweet - with the parents beeming with pride on their little bundle, and Dave, the pastor I adored, essentially wishing good things for the child.
In my early twenties I went to the dedication of cousin's little girl. Neither he nor his wife had a church they belonged to. They got married while expecting their daughter. Yet when it came time to raise their daughter, they chose the church route that neither one followed and the faith that neither lived by. Tradition! The service was held at my cousin-in-law's aunt's church: a small, acoustic-cieling tiled office space near the air force base. The pastor was frenzied and the message disturbing. The music was some of the worst I'd ever heard, on an old baseball diamond organ. The whole atmosphere was creepy, weird, and musty. Of course the three-minute prayer for my cousin was after the sermon: Why on earth would the pastor waste a captive audience of unwilling far-flung relatives and varied religious persuasions? (Part 2 on baptizing my son tomorrow)Read more!
Are you pracitcing another religion - going a-whoring - if you do yoga? Meditate? Decorate with feng shui?
Have you ever talked back to your parents, or have your kids ever talked back to you? Then this might upset you. (Start at 4:04.)
If Jesus saved us from sins, shouldn't we sin so his act doesn't go to waste?
What if Satan's the good one and you're worshiping the wrong guy, because the Bible led you astray?
What is Satan's motive to hurt or harm people, when doing that will only make his opponent more desirable in the Battle For Souls?
Will you see/hear/think of your friends roasting in hell while you're in heaven? If not, why not? If so, how could you possibly enjoy heaven knowing loved ones are being tortured FOREVER?
If Jesus said you could move a mountain with faith as small as a mustard seed, why do faith healers wear glasses?
If Christians can move mountains with their faith, why have mountain top removal and dynamite?
For literalists: Why does the Bible have to be interpreted literally to have value?
How do you know St. Paul was really inspired by God and not just crazy? What if he turned god's own plan for salvation into something completely different? Could that explain god's apparent personality change between the Old and New Testaments?
If god supposedly loves humans why has he killed so many people?
For Catholics/Methodists/Episcopals: Instead of doing a tiny amount every Sunday over and over, why can't all the priests get together and bless all the water in the oceans into Holy Water once and for all?
How do you know if a voice in your head is God, Satan, or your own thoughts?
Why is the Bible written with so many internal contradictions?
For creationists: Should we teach the controversy for all subjects, or just biology?
Is it really a "sacrifice" to die for a couple days, in exchange for godhood, immortality, and billions of people worshiping you and martyring themselves for you?
Why is Jesus' story so strikingly similar to those of other messiahs and demigods?
Why would an all-powerful, all-loving god allow this kind of global imbalance? Or this kind? (Remember Christians - if your god can't fix it, your god's not omnipotent.)
Would it disturb you if the President prayed to God through his hair dryer? Why?
What's the measurable difference between praying to your god and praying to this jug of milk?
When stoning an unruly child to death as Biblicaly commanded, is it more or less ethical to aim for the head to try to end things quickly, rather than dragging it out?
Could God make a Hot Pocket so hot He couldn't eat it?
(You watched it, right? Cause that video has caused me physical damage from laughing at my desk. More than twice.) (I've since moved the pen cup.)
(Dear reader, if you are not yet totally enamored with the amazing atheist writer and creator of worlds, Joss Whedon, I pity you. Now go rectify by that by asking the biggest geek you know to help guide you through BTVS, Angel, Firefly, Serenity, Dr. Horrible, and Dollhouse.)
Why do you fear Dungeons and Dragons? The D6 will not harm you. (Ha, I love the internet age. My geekdom knows no bounds.)
Are the Phelps family following God's commands better than you are? (Biblicaly speaking, Yes. They are better Christians than you. The may be many detestable things, but they aren't hypocritical like most Christians.)
Special thanks to The Secular Thinker, Mary Wood, and Rick for contributing questions last round! Please help me draft the final funny, unique, or oddball questions for Christians. My goal is for us to have 100 New Debates available (instead of rehashing Jepthah and the Flood). So, here's the begging part: Puh-leeeeze leave questions in the comments below, or send over your atheist friends and coworkers to help this out. Once we've got the full set, I'll post it as an easy-link on the side, and also turn it into a PDF that you all can offer on your own blogs, wikis, or sites.
While I wait on that, I'm gonna go be a massive dork on Farmville. Read more!
I've been listening to old episodes of the Non-Prophets Radio podcast. (If you're not listening yet, it's your own fault. I've linked and embedded tons of Atheist Experience videos. Okay, okay, I forgive you. Go subscribe to the feed now and let us never speak of this unpleasantness again.)
The issue of intervention keeps coming up. When does the government, or we the people, or the US, intervene in how a family raises its children or how another nation treats its citizens? One of the four hosts, Shilling, (no longer on - I told you, these were archives) essentially takes a non-interventionist stance the majority of the time. He suggests the long-range approach of educating a culture, and essentially waiting things out for self-correction. He cites the decrease in racism and homophobia in younger generations as an example of this working in practice. And I have to say I agree with him up to that point.
Because I think the long-range plan is important and I do think it will work. I think history in a large sense shows that, our culture at least, is getting progressively more liberal and egalitarian. Neato. Swell. But in the meantime, if we use only the non-interventionist long-range approach, kids aren't getting vaccinated. Unassisted childbirth is killing mothers and babies.* Honor killings are happening in the United States. Parents treat their kids with unproven "natural" remedies rather than with FDA approved medicines. A little boy gets named Adolf Hitler (and his sister is named Aryan Nation.)
When are we gonna stop talking about parents rights and start talking about kids rights? I think part of the problem with the debate is that we act as if the two interested parties were the parents and the government. And of course, we object to the idea of a government raising its children - that falls under the domain of parenting. But the real nature of the issue is between the rights of the parents and the rights of the children. The government acts as attorney on behalf of the child, not as a direct antagonist to the parent. I get that now.
I was raised to fear HRS, so when they came to do an investigation, I lied. When my friend's mother told my mom I wanted to live with them, my mom told me she was playing arm chair psychologist, and that it was a common problem among psych students. That it didn't mean anything (like trying to get hit by a car when I was six didn't mean anything; or saying I needed therapy or I was gonna kill myself at 14 didn't mean anything; or saying that I had an eating disorder and that I was going to die if I didn't get help at 25 didn't mean anything).
I have to intervene for the kids right now. Fuck the long-range-only plan. Well-meaning high-minded secular and moderate religious people who were trying not to step on anyone's toes or interfere with anyone's parental rights let me get beaten, brainwashed, and Bible-fed. I didn't get to form my own personality and identity as a human. I was raised in a cult, like being a borg or a clone. I'm having to figure this shit out (who I am, what I value, what my own personality is) now and I'm 26 and I have a 4-year-old kid. It's kind of terrifying sometimes to realize how little I know and how far behind I am. I got cheated out of a childhood and it's seriously affecting my adulthood. And now I find out there's no afterlife, so this is the only shot I'm ever gonna get.
We can't sit by and let other kids have their psyches destroyed. I can't really express enough just how crazy I am and how uncomfortable the inside of my brain is. I have a really high IQ. (I don't remember the number; it was over ten years ago. I was in Mensa but we quit paying dues.) If I'd been raised in a healthy home, I'd probably be a doctor or a lawyer or a civil rights activist or married. Not unemployed and semi-agoraphobic. This isn't a pity party. I'm good at getting through shit - I have a lot of practice. (And hey, unemployment checks are the bomb. I consider that my salary for writing on my book.)
It's just that I can't not care. I can't pretend kids aren't dying from medical negligence homicide (AKA "prayer"). I know there's this huge Quiverfull generation coming up now, and a lot of those kids are growing up in abusive homes; they're learning misogyny and rigid gender roles; and they're not getting a proper education. Let's stop that. Let's stop the people who do that. I don't want go so far as making people get a license to have a kid. I get why we can't do that (examples: majority Christian licensing board = no atheists getting baby licenses; eugenics). But we have to get these religious exemption laws off the books. We have to stop acting like it's okay for people to pray, when we know that prayer prevents positive action. We need to recognize and vocalize that faith is not a virtue. Faith is a vice.
** I have no idea what language the image captions are in. But it translates to: kids have a right to food, clean water, an education, passport or national identity (refugees), family, I think happiness?, exercise/entertainment, and to be clean; and a right to not be amputated, armed, enslaved, or abused. I think it speaks across culture and language - don't you? Read more!
Today I'll be posing as David, asking questions on the nature of certainty and how anyone can really know anything about "god".
You are speaking live with Katie, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the Church.
Katie: hello
Me: Hi - I'm David.
Katie: how are you?
Me: I'm good, how are you?
Katie: I'm doing well, thanks what prompted you to come on mormon.org?
Me: I have some questions about god in general and about lds specifically
Katie: great
Me: Why do you believe that Mormonism is the right religion?
Katie: what has led you to have questions about God and the church?
Me: I don't see how people can be so certain they're right, and I wonder what's different about them. (By calling it "different" instead of deficient, I'm allowing Katie to think she has an opportunity to tell me about the difference the Holy Ghost makes.)
Katie: great question David, God has given us some incredible tools so that we can know truth scriptures and prayer
Me: Do you mean like the rules of logic and our critical thinking skills?
Katie: let me share a little bit with you about the church yes! Those are also important tools that he has given us He teaches us many wonderful truths about who we are and His plan for us through prophets and we are invited to read their words and to pray and ask Him is it is true
God has give us the Bible and in our day he has brought forth the Book of Mormon ("Our day" is the 1820s?) another testament of JEsus Christ
Me: How do you know those are the right holy books?
Katie: because I have read them abd pondered their teachings
Me: Not trying to be offensive, but when there are so many other religions and religious texts, how do you know which is right? (Notice how I continually make small social overtures which do not require me to concede a point, or agree with a factually untrue statement. "Not trying to be offensive" sounds polite without ever saying I respect her beliefs or that she should be offended that her podunk little religion sounds exactly like all the others - except the underwear part. You can build social capital by being overtly polite and pleasant. I'll cash in this political capital later.)
Katie: and most importantly I have asked God if it is true sorry, I didn't mean to answer with just because :)
Me: or if any of them are right?
Katie: by using what you said earlier - our minds and critical thinking skills (Oh Katie, I love you. This couldn't be going any better if you were following a script!)
Me: That's ok :)
Katie: DAvid, let me share with you a little but about someone who had some simmilar questions
Me: Okay, but I'd like us to get back to this point later - about how we can use critical thinking to discern between religions
Katie: sure that is actually still what I am getting at as well David, do you understand the role of a prophet?
Me: I think it's like the Mormon pope - he's always a man; he intercedes with god on behalf of his people; he gets divine revelation; and at least in the case of Catholics is supposed to be infallible. Am I right? (I don't know if Mormons dislike Catholics as much as fundamentalist/evangelical Christians do, but hell, the Prophet is just a less-rich pope.)
Katie: sort of... God has called prophets from the begining of the earth- since Adam and Eve (Ouch. I remember thinking those were two real actual first humans, some 6,000 years ago.) He uses a pattern to teach us He calls righteous men and speaks to them directly- teaching them all about the gospel and His plan for us HE commands the prophets to teach us they teach us directly also record their words in scriptures
Me: What has led you to believe all this - that god exists, is concerned with humans, uses prophets, etc.?
Kaite: many things one is the other part to this pattern that I am sharing
Me: ok (I find that non-committal agreements like this - as in, okay continue your case - are a good way of staying "nice" and keeping the person you're talking to from raising up defenses to communication - like sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "What I Got" by Sublime. Okay, probably not. But it's what *I* like to hum while ignoring the facts around me. Also, doing something "nice" makes someone feel like the owe you, which is often handy.)
Katie: so after God commands His prophest toteach us- and record scriptures He commands us to read their words and to pray abotu it. we read scriptures and are taught by prophets and then ask God if they are true and God answers our prayers (This is self-indoctrination. The social pressure to "hear from God" in a tight community of true believers is overwhelming. In hereditary religion, you've got no choice but to interpret your own inner voice as God. Since you know you're supposed to reach the conclusion your family's dogma is true, the "voice of God" in your head tells you things in complete compliance with what your family and your religion have told you it would. It can feel very persuasive, if you believe it.)
Katie: however, many people choose not to believe or follow prophets when people reject prophets it is called apostasy (Note: at least from this chat, apostasy for LDS is rejecting prophets, not god. interesting)
Me: I don't think people really have a choice in what they believe. I mean, either you think something is true or you don't, wouldn't you agree? (Here i try to cash in on social capital built up with earlier pleasantries, smileys, "is that rights" and non-committal agreements, but it fell a little short.)
Katie: no we learn and study and ponder things DAvid
Me: Do you think for one moment you could choose to believe that the earth is flat?
Katie: we learn new things every day
Me: I agree we learn new things every day
Katie: no because I know it is not... knowledge affects our beliefs when we learn the gospel
Me: Absolutely - knowledge DOES affect our beliefs
Katie: and Gods teachings we can choose to find out if it is true or not
Me: so we may have a choice in how much and what kind of knowledge we acquire, but I don't think we "choose" our beliefs. You can't choose to believe the earth is flat, because your knowledge prevents that "choice" (Is it wildly narcissistic to say "Ta-da!" to my computer screen when I think I've made an excellent point? Yes? Oh well.)
Katie: ok I agree when you know something you don't have to believe because you know (Katie, I could kiss you!)
Me: Okay. I think we both totally agree on that. (This is actually pretty significant. If that germ of a worm of an idea gets into her head - that people don't choose to be apostates, but that knowledge affects beliefs - it will make punishment for apostasy unjust in her eyes and may get her to question her own knowledge. Or it might not, but I choose to remain hopeful.) You said that one of the ways you know LDS is true is that you have studied and prayed over the Bible and BOM, right?
Katie: yes
Me: What about other holy texts, like the Koran?
Katie: let me share a scripture with you about it (Let me guess, Moroni 10? Nephi 5? In eight conversations I've been consistently given the same two passages.)
Me: Okay.
Katie: check out verse 3-5. This is a promise from the Book of Mormon
Me: The url/verse didn't come through
Katie: look for what God is promising us in these verses let me try again (link)
Me: Thanks - it worked that time.
Katie: great
Me: I've heard similar things before, from other religions. Ray Comfort of NZ is always talking about talking to god with sincerity, and my Muslim friends have shown me similar verses in the Koran. Do you think Ray and Muslims are wrong in their religion?
Katie: I know that they are DAvid, what did God promise in this scripture?
Me: That by praying you can ask him whether or not something is true and he'll tell you How do you know they are? That's really the crux of the puzzle in my head. How do you know something you only believe? (Agh! I gotta slow myself down. When I ask too many questions, they don't all get answered as thoroughly as they should)
Katie: not something DAvid the Book of Mormon if you and pray and ask God if the Book of Mormon is true He will answer your prayers and if you know that the Book of Mormon is true, you will know that what it teaches is true (Gee, and tautologies are statements that are tautologies.)
Me: Okay, so it's specifically the veracity of that particular book, not a promise to help you know what's true about other areas, right? (Because those might be testable claims!) What if I pray and ask if the BOM is true and I feel like he's said "No"?
Katie: actually that knowledge helps you out with incredible ammounts of knowledge that wont happen, but if it did then you would logically know it wasn't true (Okay, ouch on the logic front, but kudos to her crediting a rational reason for disbelief. This only ten minutes after conceding we don't choose to believe/disbelieve. So - excellent progress from Katie.)
Katie: David, I know that the Book of Mormon is true I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet (and if I say it enough times, I can make myself believe anything) will you read the Book of Mormon and ask God if it is true?
Me: Sure. But will you do me a favor in return?
Katie: that's great! I know DAvid, that God will answer your prayers (with "Yes", "No", or "Wait". Same as a jug of milk.) and you will know that the Book of Mormon is true and incredible spiritual truths will be unfloded to you! sure, what can I do for you?
Me: Will you read the Koran and ask god if it is true? Or the teachings of Buddha? Or the Egyptian Book of the Dead? Because if one of those is right, I want you to find it. And if they're not right and Joseph Smith is the true prophet, they you'll have even more reason and knowledge to back up and inform your belief, like we talked about before. (Or the third stealth option - all the religions are man made, just like all the gods and prophets.)
Katie: that is true ("Booyah!" yells at the monitor are probably equally self-serving, huh?) do you have a Book of Mormon?
Me: No, I don't. I'll order on through the site today though :)
Katie: wonderful
Me: This has been a really great conversation. I still have more questions.
Katie: DAvid, we also have wonderful missionaries in your area that can come and bring one to you and teach you more about the SAvior will you meet with them?
Me: But maybe it would better to talk again in a couple weeks, after I've had a chance to read the Book of Mormon and you've had a chance to read the Koran. Then we can talk again, and compare notes. You can help me see why you know that this one is right
Katie: sure
Me: I have a special needs child in the home, so visitors are problematic for us. (Theme music from "Psycho" is playing in my head at the thought of battling off doorstep missionaries as my marker-weilding pants-less toddler runs about yelling "Booyah!" and hitting himself in the head with a stuffed puppy.) I do most of my socializing online as a result. (True. Sad, but true.)
Katie: would you like to set up a time to talk again? when would work for you? I see
Me: I would love that Katie :) Weekdays before 2 EST are generally good for me - what's best for you?
Katie: that's fine I am online Tuesday and Friday mornings from 7am to 11 am EST come on any time and ask for me
Me: Okay Katie. Will you get a copy of the Koran from your library? I'll order the BOM now and we can talk again soon.
Katie: it has been thanks for talking with me
Me: Thank you - have a great day. I'm really looking forward to having another conversation about knowledge, belief, and god :)
Thank you for taking the time to chat with us and for your interest in the Church. Please know that you are welcome to worship with us any time, request a visit from Mormon missionaries, order a Book of Mormon, or continue to browse our Web site to learn more answers to life's greatest questions.
What Have We Learned? That Katie is the best Mormon outta 8 - and what her schedule is.* She was by far the most engaging to talk to, and I felt myself actually being excited to have the conversation with her. While she made a lot of bald assertions and unsupported claims, and her concept of what "knowing" something means is so inclusive as to be fairly meaningless, she could follow a chain of logic or argument from one point to the next without getting lost. So I really am planning on having a future talk with her. I'll just have to remember that I'm "David" when I do so. (For the gender-switching explanation, check out Mormon Chat #5 below.)
I also learned that I need to stick with this particular line for most of my theist/atheist discussions. How do you "know" that something is true. It's the question that got me out of religion and out of god-belief, and it's also the one I probably have the most to say about and have thought about the most. I should never talk about the historicity of Jesus (and frankly, I don't care if a Jefferson Bible-type rabbi actually was wandering around Jerusalem or if Paul made the whole thing up in a fevered dream). I should NEVER talk about the details of any science. (I *should* link people to credible sources like Scientific American, or get back up from a friend who IS knowledgeable about science.) I CAN talk about the Bible. I can't really back anything up that I half-remember from an ACA lecture about the early church or the cannon of the Bible. Now, if I wanted to learn more about those and use them in debate, I could. But for now, I'm gonna zero in on this one. I didn't know how little evidence there was Christ's life as a Christian, but I don't think it would have made a damn bit of difference if I had. I mean, I was a day-age creationist; I was capable of cramming logical fallacies into tightly compartmentalized spaces in my head.
So, I'm gonna go order the Book of Mormon. I'm going to get way too much crap in the mail as a result, probably, but anything to take money out the Mormon church (or any church)'s pocket sounds good to me. Check out their Free Media Gallery. I urge all my readers to order as many materials as they could possibly desire. I don't like the Mormon church spends their money infringing on the rights of gay and lesbian Americans. Let's let them waste it making free Bibles for every atheist that wants to debate a Christian online. And hey, I'm pretty sure you could decorate a dorm room wall with the shiny side of all those DVDs. Or, you could have your own snark-fest, debunking, debating, mocking and maligning the content of these free materials. So come on, make me happy and accept a little junk mail.
Or just have the stuff shipped to your ex-pastor's house. Whatever works for you.**
Finally, here's the kind of conversation I want to eventually have with Katie and other theists like her. This video has the honor of killing my faith :) It's fun to watch now, but I can't tell you how bad I squirmed, trying to come up with justifications that didn't sound pathetic in my own head. Ex-Christian.net, "God is Not Great", and the Atheist Experience helped me through the next bit, and now I'm as loud and proud as it's possible to be. Critical thinking = good.
* Go find your own Mormon. ** DISCLAIMER: Angie the Anti-Theist is a dumb ass with an odd sense of a humor, not a lawyer or law enforcement officer. If you broke the law, I didn't tell you to.Read more!
There are some places where the rules of society don't apply. I'm allowed to curse and yell at the man who cuts off my car on the highway, but not the woman who cuts off my cart at the grocery store. In a mosh pit, I'm allowed to shove and hit people and they're allowed to elbow and kick me. In a charismatic evangelical church, I'm allowed to experience musical euphoria, cry, dance, or collapse onto the floor in an emotional puddle. I'm allowed and even encouraged to raise my arms up, to smile while tears stream down face. So it makes sense that now that I don't go to church, I never experience that anymore.
The Holy Spirit is not any more absent in my life now than he ever was. Concluding, as I have, that God is imaginary, I see that the presence or lack of God in my life is not the determining factor. Rather, I never go anywhere anymore where lame dancing and public displays of internal emotions are so heartily encouraged or even tolerated as they were at church. I'm not going to break down at the pool or the bar or the grocery store. The environment is what elicits the response, not the calling of God on your heart. Or my heart. Sorry, my heart just pumps blood. Really, really fast in a mosh pit.
Read more!
I found this while trolling through the archives at Cake Wrecks (because I? am a blognerd). It's claymation opera - what's not to love? I watched Claymation Christmas every year as a kid and a teenager, till our VCR died and the 20 year old tape wouldn't play. Then I bought it on DVD. I love claymation. Chicken Run? Hilarious (even though I kind of hate Mel Gibson). And let's not forget Wallace and Grommet. "Cheese, Grommet, Cheese!" is something said (with hand gesture) among my family pretty darn often.
Read more!
Thanks for being my friend. Thanks for hugging me and loving me and forgiving me when my patience runs short. Thanks for laughing at my stupid jokes and making animal noises with me. Thanks for playing hide and seek at the pool and for giving me someone to show off my lame magic tricks to. Thanks for being with me every day and making my life better.
I'm so glad I have you in my life. I've grown more into the person I want to be since you came into my world. I want to give you the best childhood and the best preparation for adulthood I can, but mostly I just wanna snuggle with you and read a story or applaud all your new achievements. I love you very much, more than ice cream and pizza. I love you all the way.
You don't have to be like me or think like me or look like me. You do right now, and it's great fun for both of us. But you are your own unique, wonderful person and I can't wait to get to know you more and more.
URGENT: If you do nothing else today, sign and share this petition on HR 3200: Prayer is Not Medical Care. Protect children and elderly from federally funded medical neglect.
Sign this petition asking Senators to move forward with the House-passed HR 911 bill to end Institutionalized Child Abuse in residential youth facilities, wilderness "experiences", and "boot camps".
