Chatting with a Mormon Missionary: Take 9

It's that special time again - time for Angie to pull out the dumb blonde agnostic routine and chat with a Mormon.

I went with the gender neutral name Terry today, so we'll see how that results. Once again, I have a female missionary. (The first five were all guys. I didn't even know women worked at that BYU computer bank.)

You are speaking live with Bonnie, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official statement of the church.

Bonnie: Hi! How can I help you?

Me: Hi Bonnie, I'm interested in learning more about LDS.

Bonnie: That's great. What is your religious background?
(Let's quickly steer the conversation elsewhere. I don't want this to be a referendum on my atheism, but an exploration of why SHE believes something without good reason. Watch how I move.)

Me: Christian.

How about you - were your parents Mormon or did you convert?

Bonnie: My parents were both Mormon, but then they were divorced and my mom stopped practicing. It was my choice. (Don't ya know mom would be fascinating to talk to, but the Church of LDS doesn't exactly keep apostates as missionaries.)

Me: Oh. Sorry about your parents' divorce (genuine). So did you attend when you were little, and then started going back later on in life?

Bonnie: Yes. I always kind of went but didn't start going faithfully until I was about 18.

Me: So what made you go back to it, or commit to it more?

Bonnie: I read the Book of Mormon and that changed my life. I gained a testimony/relationship with my Savior. I realized what is most important in life.

Me: And what is more important in life to you?

Bonnie: God, Jesus Christ, family. That is where true happiness is found. Serving and loving others. (There are parts of these phrases I whole-heartedly agree with. I get a lot of satisfaction out of working on this blog, and part of that comes from knowing it helps others. But part of it is totally self-centered and vain - all autobiography blogs surely must be a little conceited. Right?)

Me: So you like being a Mormon because it gives you happiness

Bonnie: Yes and because this is where the truth is found.

Me: Did you look at other religions, to see which one you liked best, or did you always just know that LDS was right for you?

Truth is something I'm very interested in.

Bonnie: I knew it was true after I read the Book of Mormon.

Me: Was that before or after you were 18 and recommitted yourself to your faith?

Bonnie: After. (I was not expecting this answer. Did she never read BoM as a child in LDS church? That seems doubtful. And also, if it was after she recommitted herself - what made her do that in the first place?)

I know you can know truth as well as you study and pray about these things.

Me: So you didn't look at any other faiths, just Mormonism?

Bonnie: I have been exposed to other faiths since my step-dad is not a member of this Church. I have been to a few different churches with His family.

Me: But you haven't looked into the tenants or truth of Islam or Hindu or Sikh, right?

Bonnie: I have not

They were mostly protestant and christian denominations.
(Ah, so still God, Jesus, etc. that she listed as being the benefits of Mormonism.)

Me: So you don't really know how other religions with other gods compare. Okay. (Summary statements are wonderful.)

So, if you didn't pick LDS because it was better than other religions, why did you?

Bonnie: Because I know it is true.

Me: What are you basing that on? I mean, you didn't rule out the other ones because they were false or something was wrong with their scripture, right? You just "know" that the one you grew up with is true. How?

Bonnie: I prayed about it and asked God. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. If there is only one God there has to be only one true church. All churches have truth, but one must contain the fulness of the truth.

(This has the taste of rote recitation. I can almost hear the droning voices saying that en masse in a high-cielinged room each week. I don't know if Mormons actually have some kind of "statement of the faith" that they reaffirm each week like Catholics and Episcopalians, but I'm guessing if they did, it would sound like THIS. So let's deconstruct it - premise by premise. Seeds of doubt, baby. That's my goal in these. (And boosting readership. I think more people must do searches for "mormon lol" than anything, because I always get a ton of new readers for the Chatting with Mormon series. Hi new readers!))

Me: Let me make sure I understand what you're saying.

You grew up Mormon, but not very religious about it. At 18 you read the Book of Mormon and prayed about it. You didn't look at or try out any other religions in the meantime.

Bonnie: I guess not

Me: When you prayed it felt like God confirmed that everything you'd been taught was true, right?

Why do you suppose that there is exactly one god? What led you to conclude that there's one instead of zero or three or a hundred?

Bonnie: Because it makes sense that there would be only one God. That's the scriptures and prophets teach. (Definition: "makes sense" - "doesn't cause cognitive dissonance with the beliefs I already accept as true.)

Me: In LDS religion, sure.

But in a lot of religions there are more than one god. So why does "one god" make more sense?

Bonnie: It would be too confusing if there were multiple Gods. (Somehow the Hindus and Catholics manage it.)

Me: So you think one god is less confusing. Why do you think that would mean there was only one true church? How do you know that all paths, or many paths, don't lead to god?

Bonnie: Because God has set up one plan. That is how we return to God.

Me: What made you conclude that? What was your thought process like?

Bonnie: I studied and prayed and asked God. (That is not a thought process, sweetheart.)

Me: Do you believe that god is angry with people who follow the wrong religion?

Bonnie:I think he knows the thoughts and intents of their hearts. I don't think He is made but He knows they can be happier with the fulness of truth.

Me: Well, I know the Bible says that God is jealous. So does the Koran. What does the Book of Mormon say?

Bonnie: Same thing.

Me: Okay. So if there is one god, and only one path to him, how do you know that Mormonism is right, instead of Catholicism or Islam or Judaism or something?

Bonnie: I have studied, prayed, asked God, and received an answer.

Me: But you only studied the one religion.

Right?

Bonnie: True. (You're damn right it's true. It's also the *point*.)

Me: Okay. Do you believe that people can be deceived by false teachers or false gods?

Bonnie: I do. That is why it is so important to pray and ask God. He knows everything.
(The claw is our master! The claw chooses who will go and who will stay. The claw!)
C


Me: That's a comforting thought :)
(When you can't say something nice, say something condescending that *sounds* nice!)

Do you believe that demons or the devil can talk to us and tempt us?

Bonnie: I think we can be tempted. Everything that is good comes from God, that which is not good does not come from God.

Me: So we only make good choices if we have god in our lives?

Because Bill Gates is an atheist, and he's really successful, and he's also a good person. He gives a huge portion of his income to charity and does a lot of good. He doesn't have god. So do you mean something different, and I'm just missing the point? :)

(I love Bill Gates as an atheist example. I use Brad and Angelina a lot too, but I'm guessing the liberal "in sin" Hollywood aspects might lose her.)

Bonnie: You were asking if the devil can tempt us, my answer is yes. When we follow those bad choices we are not following God.
(Notice the dodge around my question - what about people who do good without god?)

Me; Okay. So when you prayed about the Book of Mormon, how are you certain that it was God who told you that it was the truth, and not the devil, or just your own thoughts?

Bonnie: Because it made sense and because I felt the Spirit.
("Made sense" can be thought of as "did not cause cognitive dissonance with already held beliefs".)

Me: What did the Spirit feel like?

Bonnie: In Galations 5:22-23 states; But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance
(So not what I was asking. *facepalm*)

Me: So you felt all those things when you were praying and asking if LDS was the right one true church?

Bonnie: Yes

Me: Well, I've felt all those things before too, but I've never asked God if the Book of Mormon was true.

How do you *know* that God/Holy Spirit actually led you to LDS instead of just your own thoughts and feelings?

Most people, all over the world, end up following as adults the religion they were raised in as little kids. So I wonder if that's the real reason people end up in a religion, and not because one of them is true. (Especially not one of the *tiniest* ones.)

Bonnie: Because it made sense and I know that it was the Spirit.
(I know because I know because I don't know what "know" means.)

I actually served on a mission and had the wonderful opportunity to teach people about the church who grew up in other faiths

Me: That sounds like a lot of fun :)
(Well, it's not like she's allowed to go have sex or anything. And besides, religious debate IS fun.)

Bonnie: After they searched it out, prayed, and asked God, they received the same answer.

Me: Well, yes, every religion has some conversion and deconversion. You said your mom doesn't practice anymore, for example.

And your stepdad doesn't think it's true either.

What do you know that they don't?

Bonnie: Right.

He doesn't go to any church.

The reason people fall away, like my mom, is guilt. They make a mistake and forget tht they can be forgiven.

(Scratch! Wow. This is why I hope my kid never gets religion. What an awful way for her to feel about her mom. Of course, I'm assuming that her mom's "mistake" was a sin against god, rather than an actual harm. That would change things. Still, a rather condescending and mean attitude to have towards one's mother at the wise old age of BYU attendance.)

Me: Hmmm. That might be a reason for some people. That isn't why I left Christianity, though.

(Yes, *now* I'm ready to talk about my religious background. I've done the prep work for the bombshell.)

Bonnie: They forget their relationship with God.

Me: Again, that isn't why I left. Have you ever been an apostate?
Is that why you left the church?

Bonnie: I have never been one. (Then shut up about us!) I never really left. I just didn't practice it completely. (So going back to my original question? Yes, you have always been a Mormon.)

Me: Okay. Well, there are a lot of reasons people step away from their faith, but I don't think I've ever heard someone say they left because of guilt about their own actions.
Ever.

Bonnie: I know a lot of people that forgot they could be forgiven and so they left.
(Somehow I'm guessing that's not the interpretation they'd put on it themselves.)

Me: Well, would you like to hear a bit about my religious background?

Bonnie: Sure.

Me: I was raised Christian. I read my Bible, taught Sunday School, and went to church at least once a week. I paid my tithe.

As I got older, I made friends with people who weren't my religion. I was really sad to think they wouldn't be in heave with me after we died.

Bonnie: They will.

Me: Not in the tenants of the religion I grew up in

I used to read my Bible, and pray, and ask God to tell me what was true and what to do, and I tried to lead a good life and honor Him. (most of the time.)

Bonnie: We believe they will.

Me: Okay. I know Mormons and Christians have very different afterlife beliefs, but I think even Mormons have separate levels of heaven, so my friends who were following the "wrong religion" might not have ended up on the same level that I did, right?

(Bonnie: But before we get to that we are in a placed called Spirit World. (Ooh!) This is where we will wait till the Savior comes again. This is where every one of God's children will have the opportunity to accept His truth. It wouldn't be fair for them to be judged on something that they were never taught.

(Look, if I can go to your crappy heaven without believing your crappy religion, then the cost-benefit analysis of Pascal's Wager doesn't really work out well for Mormons.)

Me: I really love learning, so I started to read and learn more about a lot of things - science, and history, and religion. In college a lot of my friends were Muslim.

I felt like I just *knew* that their religions was wrong, and that they were good people but deceived.

Bonnie: It's true. (*snort* Confidence much?)

Me: But I started to ask myself what evidence I had for my beliefs that my Muslim friends didn't have. And you know what? There's not even any evidence that any god even exists! I was totally blown away

Bonnie: What kind of evidence are you looking for?

Me: So I started to look into it further, and I looked at the founding of various religions. I looked at the history of Islam, Christianity, and LDS

Evidence - something that shows WHY religion X is better than religion Y. Or why what religion X claims to be true actually *is* true.

I mean, from an outsider's perspective, you telling me that you read the scripture and prayed and felt like god told you LDS was right, sounds exactly the same as my Muslim friends who read the Koran and prayed and felt like god told them Islam was right.

How do you KNOW you're right?

Bonnie: I can understand how that might seem confusing. (Or batshit.)

Me: Good :)

Bonnie: I guess that's where study and meditation comes in.

Me: Yes, but like I said - other religions have that. People of other faiths list the exact same reasons for why they believe their scriptures are right that you did.

Jews study and meditate on the Torah. Muslims study and meditate on the Koran. Christians study and meditate on the Bible.

Are they all praying to god and just being deceived??

Bonnie: There is a great talk by one of our apostles about acquiring spiritual knowledge that came to mind. Would you take a minute to read it?

Me: Absolutely, Bonnie.

Bonnie: Thanks (link)

Me: You're welcome. I'll write back as soon as I'm done reading. :)

Bonnie: Perfect.

Me: Okay. I have a question about this quote from Joseph Smith. "The greatest achievement mankind can make in this world is to familiarize themselves with divine truth, so thoroughly, so perfectly, that the example or conduct of no creature living in the world can ever turn them away from the knowledge that they have obtained."

Bonnie: Okay. What's your question?

Me: If the most important thing you can do on this earth is learn divine truth (gag me with a harpsichord if *that's* true), aren't you severely limiting yourself by only looking at one religion? Joseph Smith was a man. What if he was deceived?

Bonnie: If there is only one true religion then you would not be limiting yourself.

Me: Yes, but you don't know for certain that it IS the right one. You could be missing the right one because you never even looked past the one you were born into.

(Reeeeealllly loooooong pause. I hope she hasn't scampered like a fluffy bunny!)

Are you still there Bonnie?

Bonnie: I'm here. (Wow, after I called Joseph Smith "just a man" and everything, she's still here!)

Me: What do you know, what reason to believe do you have, that people of other faiths don't have?

Bonnie: It is hard to know what they are feeling. The Spirit will testify differently to me than to you. (Crappy Spirit.) But I know that you can know truth by study and prayer. That is how we acquire scriptual truth. (Point of order, "scriptural truth" has not been shown to, ya know, actually BE true.)

Me: Bonnie, what I'm asking is very simple. What evidence do you have that what you believe is true? What logical reason could you give someone else to explain why your scripture is right, and the other ones that you haven't read or studied are all wrong?

That seems like it should be easy for a missionary to explain. Why is your religion any better than the thousands of other ones that have existed?

Bonnie: I have the Book of Mormon. I have the knowledge of a modern-day prophet. (And I have days of the week underpants*. Neither one tells me why LDS is better than Christian Science. I asked for evidence and you give me scripture?)

Me: And my Muslim friends have the Koran and the wisdom of their Imams. Catholics have the Holy Bible and the wisdom of their Pope. Tibetan Buddhists have their scripture and the Dalai Llama. (Do Buddhistst have scripture? I was banking on her not being able to correct me on that one if I was wrong.)

So what reason do you have for why anyone should pick LDS instead of one of the other religions, or no religion at all?

Bonnie: Because after the death of Christ and His apostles the earth fell into apostasy. God restored truth to the earth through a prophet again. That is why.

Me: But that's only believed by Mormons. No one else believes that, so it's not a verifiable fact you can point to. I mean, just because the Book of Mormon says it's true doesn't mean it is. The Koran says that it's divine truth too. All the scriptures do - that's what makes them scripture.

Bonnie: And anybody can know it is true as they study and read it.

Me: Do you agree that Muslims and Hindus are deceived, and that their religion is man made and not true?

Bonnie: Spiritual truth is available to everybody.

I believe that every church/religion has some truth in it, but not the whole truth. (And nothing but the truth, so help me god?)

Me: Yeah, most religions claim that they're the only right one and that anybody can be saved as soon a they convert.

Why is TRUE for LDS and not true of the others?

Bonnie: Because we believe that this is Jesus Christ's church once again restored to the earth in is fulness. We believe this is where the Priesthood authority, power given to man to act in God's name, is found that provides saving ordinances.

Me: I know what you believe. (Not deeply, but a little after all these chats.)

What I'm asking is: How do you know for certain that Mormons aren't deceived, too - just like Muslims and Buddhists and everybody else?

Bonnie: Because I believe the Lord has revealed truth to me. (Well, isn't that jut a succinct summary on the history of insanity: "I've got specially revealed knowledge!")

Me: I'm not asking about what you believe. I'm asking about what you know. Or WHY you believe it.

There must be some reason that you're a Mormon and not a Muslim. What is the reason?

Bonnie: I have already explained why I believe it I don't know how else to explain it.

Me: So there's no evidence that the things Joseph Smith wrote in the Book of Mormon are actually true. You just believe it because you've never looked at anything else, and you've been a Mormon you're entire life, not just since you were 18. You said you never really stopped being a Mormon.

You don't actually have a reason to believe. It's just what you've always done. Right?

Bonnie: Joseph Smith translated it by the power of God. There is no way he could have made up the Book of Mormon. (*spittake*) I know it is the word of God.

I have many reasons to believe, which I have explained. I just don't know how else to convey it. (You've explained far more than you realize.)

Me: It could easily have been made up. In fact, everyone who knows about the story and isn't a Mormon thinks that he DID make it up.

No, you just said that you felt like it was true, or you felt like god said it was so or you felt like it made sense. But none of those are unique to LDS. Every religious person has those "reasons" for their beliefs.

What you don't have is anything that actually points to it being TRUE. Don't you care if what you believe is true? I know I do. That's why I study so many religions, and so much history and everything else.

Bonnie: I hope that through your study you are able to find truth. (Translation: This is uncomfortable. I'm going to go bye-bye now.)

Me: You too. I think you'd have a much better shot at it if you studied something you hadn't been spoonfed since birth.

It's good to question your faith. If God is real, he'll honor that desire for truth. (And if he's real and won't, then he's a prick not worthy of worship.)

Bonnie: I respect your beleifs. I know these things are true and know that you can know them too as you prayerfully study the Book of Mormon. I have questioned my faith and I have received an answer. It was great talking with you. Have a wonderful day!

Me: Ask some of your friends why they left and really listen to their answers. I"m guess it's not because they forgot they could be forgiven.

Bonnie: Will do. Have a great day! (Exclamation marks mean it's polite for me to go away now!)

Me: You too :)



That was FUN. So what did we learn this time?

It is possible to have an hour long chat with a Mormon and not be sent to Moroni 10 or Nephi 7. And probably some other stuff, too. But this post took forever and it's nearly time to grab the Little Man from the bus stop. Rest assured, I did my best to plant seeds of doubt.

In the meantime, I have to share with you this delightful video my brother sent of Buffy kicking that pansy stalker Edward's ass.



Seriously - vampires that *glitter* in the sun? That's what happens when a MORMON writes a vampire story. The kick-ass-tacular Buffy is created by atheist and secular humanist Joss Whedon.










* It is still Tuesday, right?

** Why is Miss South Carolina considered an idiot for her inane comments, yet Miss My-Gay-Dads-Shouldn't-Marry California was on all the talk shows being toasted for her "bravery"?

Read more!

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Evolution

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Thin Within

While sniffing around ChristianWomenToday.com, I came across a "study" (survey) they were doing on eating disorders. Since I've had one of those for 15 years, I was intrigued. (I think of my disorder as being "in remission" rather than cured. There really isn't yet a true cure for eating disorders, but some people stay in remission for years or even decades, so I have some hope.)

Because I welcome every opportunity to let Christian missionaries working at computer banks know that other views are out there, I filled out their "study". (Christians don't understand WORDS.)

1: What do you classify as an eating disorder?
Eating and/or exercise which disrupts the normal processes of life and relationships. Secretive eating, binge eating, over-exercising, orthorexia, anorexia, bulimia, etc. (You know, the actual definition and stuff.)

2: Why do we feel the need to look a certain way?
Borrowing from our Biblical and patriarchal history of women as sexual property, advertisers use womens bodies to tap into male desire, in an attempt to associate the desire for attractive women with the desire to buy X. Fashion and other industries contribute by determining what is deemed "attractive", and then selling the clothes, cosmetics, surgery, etc. that are deemed necessary to be "attractive".

3: When would you consider a person obsessive with their appearance?
When it takes up an hour or more of their thoughts per day. (I'm basing this on the OCD model that a person's OCD is considered clinical if obsessive thoughts and/or rituals consume one or more hour of the person's day.)

4: How do you deal with your emotions about your appearance?
Huh? I don't know; I grew out of my ugly duckling years, so I'm mostly just enjoying the swan life.

5: Define a person with true beauty. What does Peter 3:3-5 say beauty is?
I would define a person with true beauty as someone who is compassionate and generous. That passage defines beauty as "gentle and quiet" and "submissive". That sounds more pathetic and victimized than "beautiful" to me.

6: When are times that you feel like you have no control in your life?
When my unemployment check gets deposited late and my landlady knocks on my door.

7: What are some ways that you can overcome your eating disorder?
Cognitive therapy, positive affirmations, an approach toward health rather than appearance.

8: How do you think God views you? How do you think God feels when you’re harming your body?
God is imaginary. No real medical doctor should ever ask me what unicorns or gods think of my issues with food.

9: What do you think you need in order to have happiness in life? Is the thing you think you need eternal? Or is it just temporary?
Friends, love, enough money not to be stressed out about it. I need my son and satisfying mental exercise. I'd sure like to keep all my limbs and organs, although I know a lot of people manage to be happy even after losing some of those. What I need is real, which means I actually have a chance of getting it.

10: I have the following questions/comments about this study. Also, please pray for me in these areas:
Are you aware of the term "push polling" and do you see how this "study" does more to suggest that the real cure for an eating disorder is god (who I believed in during the 12 years I was puking my guts up) than it does to actually learn what women think?

I thought that was the end of it, so I didn't bother blogging it all here. (Yes, I do more theist educating on my own time, not just what you read on the blog. Scary, isn't it?) But now, I've gotten a reply from my personally randomly assigned "counselor" (with no credentials).

Dear Angie,

My name is Pat and I am an online mentor for this web site. I hope you enjoyed the study regarding eating disorders. There is an organiziation called Thin Within that has helped many women with weight control issues. The web site is www.thinwithin.org I found it very helpful for me when I was struggling with 50 pounds of unwanted fat. I would like to hear what you think of it. You can write back to me directly by replying to this email.

Blessings,

Pat<><

Yes, that is a carat Jesus fish. (or Pat is less than, greater than, and less than the blank spaces beyond the carat fish.) And really, what of all my responses made her think I was carrying around 50 pounds of unwanted fat, or even 5 pounds that genuinely needed to be lost? I didn't even mention my body, other than to say it was "swan" like. People with eating disorders (which includes men) may have "unwanted" weight at any point in time. That's simply not a reliable measure of whether or not they need to lose weight, when dealing with someone who has persistent (irrational) body image fears. And it's damn irresponsible.

So let's go take a peek at Thin Within. (I already did, but I want you to see this, too.) Thin Within promises "a Biblical approach to lasting weight loss" - not weight management, not healthy lifestyle, or body-confidence - weight loss. A good portion of the population with eating disorders will die if they lose more weight. This isn't just rude or impersonal; the next (genuinely Christian) woman who goes to that site may take her "mentor's" advice and join a non-accredited weight loss program run by "trust your body" quacks instead of doctors. And that might kill her. (I'm assuming female rather than male or gender neutral here, because I found the "study" on ChristianWomenToday.com. Again, it's important to recognize that 10-15% of people with eating disorders are male.)

The physical principle is that we should eat only when truly hungry and stop eating before we are full. At Thin Within, we use what we call a "Hunger Scale" to track eating patterns. We encourage people to eat when they are at a "0", or truly hungry, and stop eating when they are at a "5", which is before they are full.

If you can monitor and respond to your body's natural appetite cues, you probably don't have an eating disorder. I have no idea when I'm hungry anymore. I eat at set times of day, because I know I have more energy and am less cranky when I do that, but if I always stopped eating before I was full, well, that's what anorexia was for me. I didn't stop eating altogether. I just learned how to stop before I was full. (D'uh. I figured that one out when I was 12 and trying to stop my boobs from growing in.)

There are no good foods or bad foods - we simply want people to respond to their bodies God given signals of hunger and fullness. When someone is truly hungry, we want them to have the freedom to eat a healthy and balanced meal at that time.

They might have the freedom, but if there are no guidelines on food, people aren't generally going to pick a healthy and balanced meal, especially people with a history of metabolic abuse or binging. (Trust me, after days of stopping your meal before it has satisfied you, anybody would snap. At that moment, you don't want a health balanced meal. You want the entire Chinese buffet.) I have to say I can't see a discernible difference between peddling this as one half of your eating disorder/weight loss program and using the "think method" to teach trombone lessons. If people made good food choices when left to their own devices, we wouldn't have a national global obesity epidemic.

The spiritual principle of Thin Within comes into play because it is often hard for us to eat from a "0" to a "5" in our own strength. This is usually because we often eat as a response to being upset, excited, anxious nervous, depressed, lonely, etc.

Or because we're still hungry. Remember, stopping at a 5 means stopping before you're full. Unfortunately this "feel for it" guessing method requires a level of body-awareness many people do not have. I don't think anybody's obese because they want to be. Our foods are carefully designed* (by intelligent people) to abuse our evolutionary needs for fatty foods and carbohydrates. What's best is to eat regular, small meals throughout the day, and to try to avoid getting truly hungry, or to a "zero". It's better to eat nutrient-dense low calorie foods in large quantities than to eat low-nutrient high calorie foods like candy bars in small quantities. It's not always easy to do that, but that is the goal most healthy diets will model off of. (Peanut butter fiber bars awesome.)

At this point, we are no longer eating for physical nourishment, but we are creating a relationship with food and turning to it to provide us with a way of dealing with emotional and spiritual issues. We are no longer looking to food to provide us with just physical life, but spiritual life as well.

Emotions are not spiritual (they're emotional). And, ew, even as a believer, I never would have wanted food for "spiritual" issues. Clearly this Thin Within organization sees themselves as a weight loss group, so some of my complaints about how reckless this group would be for someone with a starving-type or calorie restricting-type eating disorder should be properly directed at Pat from ChristianWomenToday.com. I did not have the emotional love-affair with food all binge eaters are imagined by some to have. I pretty much avoided food until I was so hungry I inhaled it without even tasting, so this notion (of Pat's) that my problem comes from looking to food for "spiritual life" is just fractal wrongness.

While food may provide some level of comfort for a very short while, food cannot obviously provide us with spiritual life. Only a relationship with our Heavenly Father can accomplish that.

First sentence, true. Second sentence, so not true! There's the obvious problem that a spiritual life hasn't been defined, so I have to somewhat guess on the meaning intended here. I would guess that whatever definition Thin Within means when they say a spiritual life, it could include, or parallels, the spiritual life claims of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, Pantheists, Pagans, and Mormons. So "only a relationship with our dude" is just a baseless claim. (Yeah, we already knew that. But I like taking things apart, especially propaganda.)

Also, this is nothing more than the 12 step alcohol-for-meeting addiction swap. "Instead of having an imaginary and unhealthy (and ultimately unsatisfying) relationship with food, have one with our imaginary friend Jesus instead!"

Don't settle for another weight loss program that only deals with the numbers on a scale. Make an eternal change in both your body and spirit!

Anyone who is wanting to lose weight is wanting to lose numbers on the scale. "Don't settle for a program that addresses your actual goal!" Also, unless this group is Mormon and I didn't realize it, how do they expect to make an "eternal change" their bodies? (On a side note, I am completely cool with the idea of being a transhuman as long as the "me" in my gray matter gets to keep thinking and mucking about.)

So, after looking over Thin Within, and because she asked for my opinion, here's my reply to Pat.

Pat,

Your response was impersonal and aimed at someone carrying around extra weight. Without knowing anything about my body type, you sent me to go "lose more weight". If you'd actually read the responses to the study that I entered, you'd realize that I'm a recovering anorexic and sending me to a weight loss website - Christian or otherwise - was extremely negligent behavior on your part.

I'm in a place of enough healing to tell you this. The next person you shamelessly and carelessly send to Thin Within (which I'm guessing gives your group a kickback for referrals?) may end up dead. Kudos to you for the complete lack of individual care you give for people you claim to be "counseling". This is why secular therapists are almost always better; they recognize that individual people need individual treatment, instead of prescribing the same rote verses over and over and over again. They *listen*.

Just so you know, I weigh less than 120 pounds and I'm a size 3. Do you still think that sending me to the online fat camp that worked for you is the best solution for MY issues with food?

Sincerely,

Angie the Anti-Theist
http://angietheantitheist.blogspot.com
http://excultnetwork.ning.com

What do you think - was I too nice?




*Yes that is a Conservapedia link. Sometimes the simplest way to find out if something is true is to see if Conservapedia calls it a lie, lol.

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Ex-Cult Network

It's in its infancy, and needs a lot of work, help, and love, but here's the Ex-Cult Network, a social community for survivors of cults, and the families of active cult members.

What it needs is a whole lot more people throwing ideas at it, because I'm sort of stuck. And busy. And I've never launched a social network before, so advice would be appreciated, too!

Most important of all, it needs members to serve. Please let any cult survivors that you think would benefit from a community focused on critical thinking, social emotional skills, and getting beyond the betrayal of a cult know about this group. It's also available at http://tinyurl.com/excult

Cheers!




p.s. I hate to ask, but my computer's memory is maxing out and I need some RAM. My Firefox keeps crashing on me mid-post! If anyone would like to make a donation, I'd sure appreciate it.

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More of my grandmother

Holy crap. I found new sites with my grandmother's books by doing an image search of her name. (I was trying to find a picture of her, for my last post. It's not like I could do a funny comic strip with that one.)

Three copies of her book "Healing in Zion" (which is waaaaaaay craizer than the other two "non-fiction" books: it's a blueprint for disaster) are being shared around with various Quiverfull and homeschool families through the Victory Christian School lending library. *facepalm* There are only so many copies of her books out there, and (on top of the new cult survivors social network, this blog, my book, and raising my kid) I'm trying to round up as many of them as possible. (Donations to ATAT for this purpose would be greatly appreciated!) But here these three copies are doing damage to far more than three families. And unlike a lot of the midwives who sell her books on their websites (and who should therefore be stripped of ever working with women again), this group isn't selling their only copies. They're keeping her toxic view of the world in circulation, poisoning large families.

So I wrote the absolutely most Christian sounding email I could, and sent it from my other email address, the one that doesn't have "antitheist" in the name. It took a little creativity to portray myself as being onboard with their vision in every other respect, and just wanting this one book removed, without actually lying. I just don't think they'll take the advice of an atheist - even one with facts and court cases and dead babies on her side - on the issue of what books Christian families devoted to faith should read. Gig's teachings will find fertile ground in this community, and that sickens me and worries me. It's like that painful scene in a movie, when you know everything is going to come crashing down on your protagonist, but there's nothing that can be done to stop it. But I'll still try to stop it.

Hello and good day,

I am Carol Balizet's granddaughter; she is the author of "Healing in Zion" which I see you offer in your lending library. I myself was homeschooled, and have very fond memories of the experience. I think the idea of a lending library between homeschool families is fantastic, and an excellent way of sharing resources.

I am sure you are unaware that Carol's teachings have led to the deaths of several children, and that she is now classified as a "cult leader" for some of her heretical teachings. I would ask you to please read the links I've provided below, and prayerfully consider removing her teachings from your library. I am quite concerned about the damage these books have already done to God-fearing, loving, and well-meaning families.

The majority of these links are from Christian cult-watch organizations.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b17.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/zion/zion2.html
http://www.ccgm.org.au/articles/Articles/ARTICLE-0007.htm

These are testimonies from a pro-homebirth site, explaining why Carol's teachings are unbilical and dangerous.
http://www.birthjunkie.com/ZBHarticle.html
http://www.birthjunkie.com/testimony2.html


I can provide more links if you like. If you have more questions, please feel free to email me or call me at home at (813) 421-2641*. I would be more than happy to explain my concerns to you.

I wish you all the best.
Sincerely,

Angie Jackson

* p.s. to my readers - That's my new Google Voice line, so it is open for anybody that needs to talk about this stuff - cults and faith and children and nonsense and getting better. It's really great connecting with you and knowing that you're out there. :)

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Why I Write

Google knows about my blog. My entire "omg that wuzza cult?" fall from grace into anti-theism began with a Google search of my grandmother's name. Now when you Google her, page three of the results leads you to my blog.

A man who knew my grandmother back in the 1980s, when the baby ministry was just getting off the ground, contacted me yesterday. My Giggy delivered his son two years before I was born and two years before she wrote her woman-and-child-hating homebirth manifesto. His son needed an emergency cesarean but my grandmother taught that having a c-section (like she did - four times) is in actuality witchcraft and sorcery (as all surgery was to her) and that your baby delivered in this fashion would be "offered unto Caesar" and the devil, not you and the Lord. (Caesar was considered an evil spirit of, essentially, humanism.)

My grandmother and the two other burnt-out nurses who ran the baby ministry in the early days talked on and on at baby meetings they held for pregnant couples, telling them how dangerous hospitals were. My grandmother had a filing cabinet filled with newspaper clippings of medical malpractice. One story I remember vividly is of a man who had the wrong leg amputated at a hospital just a few miles away. Of course, like creationists, psychics, and "prayer warriors", my grandmother focused on the exception rather than the rule. I honestly thought as a child that going to a hospital was akin to a death sentence, so terribly inept were these doctors. In that light, it made perfect sense to trust God (who loved us, promised to heal us and provide for us, and was certainly not incompetent) over doctors (who secretly worshiped demons, when they weren't killing their patients through malpractice). (Yes, I was an early deather.)

For a moment, put yourself in this man's shoes: In a time of struggle, and no real self-confidence, his pastor and this nurse were both telling him the same things - that God would always heal, that birth was natural and "not a medical emergency", that we had been promised provision, and that doctors were evil. Other people were having Gig at their births and she had probably already attended several dozen before his. Home birth and midwifery were on the cultural rise (as they still are - unfortunately) and within the context of his life and beliefs, it wasn't crazy for him to believe what my grandmother said. He blamed an early foundation in Christian fundamentalism for laying the fertile ground for her ideas to take root.

My grandmother didn't take his wife to the hospital; there was no c-section. He son was born gray and pale, and didn't suck to nurse for two days. He's 28 now, just a couple years older than I am, and living in a group home. He'll never be an independent adult - and my grandmother did that to him. I didn't get a chance to ask last night, although I meant to, if he and his wife were the ones who took my grandmother to court for practicing medicine without a license and damaging their child, or if that's yet another life she negatively impacted.

This is why I run this blog, and this is why I'm writing my book. To a religious historian a hundred years from now, the children (and adults) she harmed may be no more than a statistic. To me, each one is a story and a child and a life. Oh, to have a time machine right now. If I could just go back to 1980 and kill her or cure her or stop her - before Baby Number 15 died; before this boy's life and his mother's life were put at risk, and he suffered permanent disability as a result; before Harrison's parents had been brainwashed into believing that prayer was the best possible treatment for his several hundred yellow jacket stings; before Roland Robidoux ever got a copy of one of her books. Before she'd written the books.

Or if I had to go back farther in time to stop her, had to go all the way back so that she was never born, I'd take my own retroactive annihiliation and nonexistence, if it kept messages like hers and like the others she parroted (stole from, shamelessly) away from loving and well-meaning people who would never intentionally put their families at risk. Sadly, I don't have a time machine. All I have is my story and my voice.

As Carol Balizet's granddaughter, as the one-time chief acolyte and head cheerleader of Home in Zion Ministries, at the once-future healer/prophet/leader of the group, I can tell the story of each of these children better. I can bring more focus, and I can get people to start talking about these issues - about cults and cult leaders, and about faith and faith healing. Hopefully, together with your help, I can start a national dialogue on the issue of childrens' rights vs. parents' rights, and we can stop acting like the denomination of your parents should determine what constitutes as abuse or neglect for you. This is our Sharia law - religious exemptions that infringe on the human rights of American citizens. For all my US readers who (like me) are getting really annoyed with UK's Labor party for courting the Muslim vote with Sharia-pandering, here's the "beam" in our own eye. (And here's a petition you can sign to help change that. And here's another.)

I think when people read stories of children who die of medical neglect, they imagine the parents as unfeeling or cruel. I want to write this story because I need to explain how fundamentalism can warp a person, and how people can do the worst actions from the most motives. I want to preach the gospel of critical thinking, so that people can protect themselves from the people like my grandmother - cunning, charming, confident, and crazy - who are out there, waiting to prey on their next victim.

Thank you to everyone who's contacted me, either through a comment or an email or a phone call. It really means a lot to me, and I'm glad of anyway that my blog is helping people to process their own backgrounds. That's kind of what I look at secular humanism as being all about - people helping people be better people. You help me. Thanks.

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Christian Women Today

Two years ago I was a Christian woman. Kind of funny to think about, really. I can't in any way imagine going back to that, but it is fun to look at, as this sort of "alternate road" I could have taken (or could have stayed on). I can't know with any certainty who I would be now if I hadn't had my son, or hadn't been raised in a cult. But since that fork in the road was so recent, I can say with better evidence who I might have been if I hadn't stumbled across GodisImaginary.com. And hey, backseat non-activist atheists, I have a bone to pick with you: Once my faith was seriously challenged, with good arguments, it fell apart within minutes. Christians are annoying you? Go deconvert them and stop your whining, lol.

The very real human compassion and desire for justice that have always been a part of me (and I think are the core of my "pre-cult identity") had always been bothered by disability and disease and death and war and famine and starvation. I remember seeing a commercial to sponsor a child when I was about six. I went back to my room, grabbed my quilt, and brought it to Giggy. "Here, I wanna give this to the kid that doesn't have a blanket on the TV." If you atheists had shown me sooner the error of my ways, I might have wasted less time on belief (and might be farther in my book, dammit). So in other words, go ye forth unto all chat rooms and proclaim "God is imaginary, and the Bible is evil." It's fun. :)

So I stumbled my way on over to ChristianWomenToday.com where apparently Christian woman means blond. (Seriously, there are five blonds and one Caucasian brunette on this page. Can't you feel the acceptance?) I then clicked and stumbled my way to "If God is in Control, Why..." hoping that they might address the problem of pain, which is a very significant problem for those who believe in an involved and all-loving god.

What do you do when the roof falls in? I hate failure and disappointment. Why does God allow these things to happen to me if He’s really in control?

Oh, of course we're not dealing with HIV in Africa. This is about personal "failure and disappointment". This is "why me" whining. How utterly self-centered and boring.

God often allows failure to point us to one critical truth…we can’t live the Christian life on our own. Throughout our lives, there will be times when God will place us in situations that will cause us to realize our insufficiency and make us depend on Him. Only Jesus has lived perfectly the Christian life and if anything of eternal value is going to be accomplished through my life, He is going to have to do it!

Well then God's a conceited prick, now isn't He? He allows bad things into our lives to prove a point, that he created us dependent? That's not a good god, and that's not a good parent. (Parenting is the only job in the world where you spend your entire time training your replacement. "Children of God" never grow up and move out on their own.) And let's just put to bed the notion that Jesus led a sinless life.



Now consider for a moment the sentence, "if anything of eternal value is going to be accomplished" it won't be by me? Wow. I guess I should stop trying to do things of value, and just wait for God to do them through me. Or, I'll continue doing things of value, but give him the credit because Jesus likes ego stroking.

2 Cor. 4:17,18 says, “For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So, we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.”

"Light and momentary troubles" is a really effective way of writing off the pain and suffering of millions, isn't it? "Don't worry, they'll be taken care of later." It's anti-humanist and I don't like it. And, because literalist interpretations are fun, try to join me in the mental picture of a bunch of Christians fixing their eyes on the invisible. You got it? They'd look like a bunch of right idiots, wouldn't they? Oh wait, they already do...

Earlier in this book (1:8) Paul says, “we were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired even of life.” When Paul speaks of “light and momentary troubles”, we know that actually his trouble was severe, BUT in comparison to what was being gained and accomplished in his life and ministry – it was insignificant. In fact, he says, it “far outweighs them all.” What a perspective! How do I get it?

Why would you want that perspective? Personally, rather than brushing off my pain (and the pain of others) as insignificant, I'd like to do something to mitigate it and prevent it. Actually, that's what this blog is all about, and the book I'm writing, and the way I raise my son. I want to prevent unnecessary pain. I want people to break out of their self-defeating religious mindsets; I want children to have legal protection from religious abuse and medical neglect; and I want my son to form his own identity in childhood, instead of having to piece one together in his mid-20s. But the Christian perspective being lauded and desired here is one that dampens the human impulse to help others. It removes the immediacy and urgency that the sound of a child's cry stirs in his mother, or that the sight of a malnourished child stirs in all of us. It suggests that even if we don't help that person, it'll be made right, and it excuses us from being the ones to help. It's shameful, and it's not "thinking". It's self-indoctrination.

Recognizing that God has allowed or placed me in the situations I’m in to add to my character something of eternal value is the first step to dealing positively with failure or disappointment. I need to believe that this particular situation is His special way of performing His refining work in my character and accomplishing in me that which will far outlast what is presently disappointing me. He is using this situation to teach me how to walk by faith and to equip me to make eternal investments in the lives of others. Romans 8:29 clearly states that every situation has the effect of molding us into Christ’s image and ICor. 1:4 explains how our ministry is made more effective by experiencing trouble! Circumstances are not out of control but are used for our good in the hands of a loving God!

Tell yourself that bad things are good for you and try not to think too hard. "I need to believe" (because thinking is hard!) The paragraph above really only works if the troubles you're thinking of are minor and personal - tight finances, a difficult patch in life - and not if they're lifelong or severe or massive. The Holocaust, for example, makes me seriously question the statement that "Circumstances are not out of control but are used for our good in the hands of a loving God." What can I say? 12 million dead just doesn't compute when you're adding "loving god" and "in control" to the other side of the equation. And while it may comfort her, I think the idea that a woman I know (whose mother began "turning tricks" with her when she was just 10) is going to have everything be okay in heaven still doesn't justify what she believes God allowed in her life.

And if "every situation has the effect of molding us into Christ's image" why aren't we all Jewish carpenters who violate the 5th commandment regularly? And does that "every situation" include each time I post blasphemy on ATAT? Is that "molding" me into Christ's image? Am I becoming more Christ-like with every flush?

We become bitter to the degree we don’t give thanks to God. Purpose to focus on what He has given rather than what is gone. Choose with your will, not your feelings, to form a habit of giving thanks often remembering that He is in control and is working in your life to produce that which is precious and which will not fade away but will last for eternity.

Hmmm. Well, on the one hand I do know that there is a lot to be said for gratitude and optimism. I'm an optimist. I choose to hope for the best, and prepare for the most likely (not actually the worst. Survivalism is a lot of work.) I'm "thankful" that I have the life I do. I'd like a few things to be better (income) but it's a good life. Now, I'm not gonna thank God for that, because he's imaginary and played no part.

But even if he was real, then that just means he watched while my son and I were homeless living in a station wagon. He watched when I was molested. He watched when I married my ex-husband, and didn't see fit to give me a personal revelation on what a bad idea that was. So, you know, "thankfulness" isn't the first attitude that comes to mind. But let me be clear, I'm not bitter. I grew up in hell on earth, and now I'm free. I'm thrilled. I don't think I could laugh about this as much as I do if I was bitter.

And I must say, it's easier to not be bitter when you have a roof, electricity (maybe even A/C), plumbing, and food. Millions of women don't have these basic necessities, much less the make up, clothes, books, and furniture I bought at a time when my income was better. Are the young Christian virgin girls raped by HIV-infected men in Africa not Christian women today? The "light and momentary troubles" of Paul sort of pale in comparison to living your life with a terminal immune deficiency and very little of the basic necessities like food and clean water.

I'm just really annoyed today at the vacuousness of modern evangelical Christians. They just don't seem to give a shit if poor brown people halfway around the globe are starving, or if poor white and brown people right here in the US are dying for lack of medical coverage. What happened to feed the hungry and clothe the poor, man? The best plug Christians have for "something good" that comes out of religion is charity, and is it just me, or does Christian charity seem to have dried up since the economy tanked? "Oh, your mortgage payments went up? Well, then don't worry about those starving kids. Surely God has a special and unique plan for your purpose-driven middle-class American life!"

Bah. I'm in a crummier mood after reading this than I expected. I think I've always been a liberal, and Christianity hijacked that impulse to help. What I credited to "God's love shining through me" was really me shining through the cult personality I'd been assigned.

Christians, please redeem your reputation. Please donate to one of the charities on the right. ICSA helps people get out of cults, and RAINN and Silent Lambs both help rape victims. Or are these "light and momentary troubles" that you shouldn't concern yourself with, because after all, rape victims get mansions in heaven?

Maybe I should get off the problem of pain for a while... I've made myself ill-tempered. I'll see if Dr. Demento can't lighten the mood, and go get myself out of this funk before my next post.



Lol, that totally worked :) "Gazebo!"

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